What about Baptism?

[saved]

As most know I attend a Baptist church. I do not claim to be Baptist, but I will not get into that now. I have seen over the years of my conversion that most Baptist churches require a person coming from another denomination to be re-baptized to join the church. Not all do this, but most do. It has nothing to do with whether or not they were submerged or sprinkled. It totally because they have not been baptized by a Baptist preacher. Does the church you attend also follow this line of thinking? Do yuo feel this is right or wrong? Why? By the way I am totally against it since I feel it dishonors Baptism making it something less then what was intended. One more thing. I have made beliefs known to the leaders ship on this just like I would if it were another denomination, and they disagree.

[Little Lamb]

You know, saved, now you have me thinking. My church probably does rebaptise someone. I haven't seen it done in my present church, but if you think about, it just doesn't make sense. If the person is truly saved, why rebaptise them just because they were in a different denomination?

I never thought of that. If a person is truly saved, they will go to Heaven and the Lord is not going to ask silly questions about it.

[saved]

I am also interested in knowing if other denominations follow this. I believe that this is a serious issue and one that brings great dispute on Baptism. It was never intended to be the ordination symbol for interring a particular denomination. I am not sure if we should re-baptize by compulsion even in the case that someone was sprinkled although I feel that this mode is incorrect.
We seem to do many things our of rote rather then out of being directed by the word and the Spirit.

[TrueDay]

Originally posted by saved
As most know I attend a Baptist church. I do not claim to be Baptist, but I will not get into that now. I have seen over the years of my conversion that most Baptist churches require a person coming from another denomination to be re-baptized to join the church. Not all do this, but most do. It has nothing to do with whether or not they were submerged or sprinkled. It totally because they have not been baptized by a Baptist preacher. Does the church you attend also follow this line of thinking? Do yuo feel this is right or wrong? Why? By the way I am totally against it since I feel it dishonors Baptism making it something less then what was intended. One more thing. I have made beliefs known to the leaders ship on this just like I would if it were another denomination, and they disagree.

Saved you are 100% right on this, I know that we will re-baptize if the person request it, but as long as they have been baptized by submerging then it is just a following of the Holy Spirit that the person is joining.

[st_michael]

The Catholic Church has always taught "One Baptism" for the forgiveness of sins... It is in the ancient creed of Nicene...

The Catholic Church does recongize Baptism, if it is done in the formula of Father, Son and Holy Spirit... Other Baptism would be dealt with on an individual bases...

In general, most Christian Baptism are recognized as valid for the Catholic Church...

Acts 19:4-5
4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.


As noted above... A Baptism in the name of Jesus is valid...

Didache "Teaching of the Twelve" ca 100~

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism.

And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

[Doma]

This is one error of denominationalism

[TrueDay]

Originally posted by Doma
This is one error of denominationalism

??????????????????

[John Oscar]

From the AG perspective, I would only recommend that someone be rebaptized if their only baptizm was done when they were infants, and now is dedicating their lives to Jesus Christ.

Blessings
John O

[cdhale]

In practice, most Churches of Christ would rebaptize someone. However, it would have nothing to do with who baptized them or where. It would have to do with why they were baptized in the first place.

Most COC believe that for baptism to be valid, then they must be baptized for the forgiveness of sins. Most churches baptize people after they are already saved. This is not acceptable to these COC folk. Of course, I only refer to immersion here. Any other form of baptism (sprinkling, pouring,etc) is nor recognized at all.

Within the CHurches of Christ there is a growing number (maybe even a majority now, I don't know) of which I am a member that believes that as long as one was baptized to obey God, then their baptism is hunky dory. While I do believe that the early Christians in the NT practiced immersion, if you are satisfied with your sprinkling, I will still accept you as my brother or sister.

clint

[Little Lamb]

Mike said:
The Catholic Church has always taught "One Baptism" for the forgiveness of sins... It is in the ancient creed of Nicene...
Yet another error of the Catholic Church. We do not get baptised for forgiveness of sins.

[cdhale]

LL, while I understand where you are coming from, you might want to read Acts 2:38 before making such assertions...

clint

[saved]

Originally posted by cdhale
LL, while I understand where you are coming from, you might want to read Acts 2:38 before making such assertions...

clint

Little Lamb is correct. The Acts passage means "because of" not "so it can happen"

[cdhale]

Do we really want to go here? The Greek phrase used in Acts 2:38 is the exact same as in Matthew 26:28. THere Jesus says that his blood is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins. Same exact words. No difference at all.

So I guess Jesus' blood was poured out because of their forgiveness, not so it could happen?

I just don't think that is right.

clint

[Little Lamb]

Clint,

The Catholics are not baptised for the right reason. You don't get baptised for forgiveness of sin or sins. That was done away with when Jesus died for our sins, at the cross.

Acts is a book of transition.

[TrueDay]

Originally posted by Little Lamb
Clint,

The Catholics are not baptised for the right reason. You don't get baptised for forgiveness of sin or sins. That was done away with when Jesus died for our sins, at the cross.

Acts is a book of transition.

LL you are right on. Forgiveness for our sins is a gift that comes from the Father when we repent and turn away from sin.

The act of being baptised is our old man dieing, under the water, Buried with Christ and then raised to newness of life. The spirit filled new Man.

The Forgiveness for sins happen long before the baptizem.

[Little Lamb]

So, TrueDay, we agree on some things. We don't totally disagree on everything.

[TrueDay]

Originally posted by Little Lamb
So, TrueDay, we agree on some things. We don't totally disagree on everything.

That can only mean one of three things.

1. There is hope for you yet.
2. There is hope for me yet.
or
3. There is hope for both of us.;) :banana:

[Little Lamb]

Originally posted by TrueDay
That can only mean one of three things.

1. There is hope for you yet.
2. There is hope for me yet.
or
3. There is hope for both of us.;) :banana:
In any event, the Lord loves both of us even when we disagree. He died for both of us and wants both of us in Heaven with Him.

[TrueDay]

:) :) :) :) :) :)

[Doma]

I agree with John. If someone recently became Born Again, and was infant baptised, he should get dunked.

I too go to an AG church.

[cdhale]

OK, let me put it all out on the table. I don't think that one must believe that they are baptized FOR remission of sins for their baptism to be valid. I would accept LL's baptism, as well as the rest of you.

My point is that you are dismissing some people's belief too quickly, without giving them the respect that they deserve (just like you do). They actually have a verse that states in explicit terms what they believe (Acts 2:38). You can say that that is not what it means, etc, but the fact is that you have no verse AT ALL that says baptism is "because of" forgiveness.

Believe what you want. I have no problem. But allow others to believe what they do without dismissing their belief with no real thought or discussion. That is disrespectful.

BTW, with very few exceptions, most people view their salvation as a gift from God, not the result of them following a formula of some sort. They believe baptism is essential to salvation and is the action that shows true faith in accepting that gift.

clint

[John Oscar]

For clarification, I do not attend an AG church. Our church is an independant Pentecostal church, but has been pastored by AG pastors for 25 years. My bible school is also through AG.
Most of my beliefs reflect the AG's. I differ in a couple of points, but for the most part reflect their theology.

I am credentialed as a minister through my church. The AG would not credential me unless I left my church and joined an AG church, even though all of our staff pastors are AG.. :rolleyes:

Blessings
John O

[Doma]

For clarification, I attend an independant newly started AG church. Our church is an independant AG church, but has been pastored by AG pastors for 2 years. Most of my beliefs reflect the AG's. I differ in a couple of points, but for the most part reflect their theology.

I was to be ordained by a nondenominational church but I didn't want to jump thru man's hoops. I left that church and joined an AG church, only because the pastor was exceptional and involved in peoples lives.

[John Oscar]

I didn't have to jump through hoops per se. They recognized the giftings, and also saw that I had completed a good portion of bible school, so they went ahead with the licensing. I am under the authority of my elder board, and the senior pastor.

Blessings
John O

[Eveningstar]

Only the Mormon Church has Authority to Baptise.

[Little Lamb]

Originally posted by Eveningstar
Only the Mormon Church has Authority to Baptise.
Now you've went and done it.

[saved]

Originally posted by cdhale
OK, let me put it all out on the table. I don't think that one must believe that they are baptized FOR remission of sins for their baptism to be valid. I would accept LL's baptism, as well as the rest of you.

My point is that you are dismissing some people's belief too quickly, without giving them the respect that they deserve (just like you do). They actually have a verse that states in explicit terms what they believe (Acts 2:38). You can say that that is not what it means, etc, but the fact is that you have no verse AT ALL that says baptism is "because of" forgiveness.

Believe what you want. I have no problem. But allow others to believe what they do without dismissing their belief with no real thought or discussion. That is disrespectful.

BTW, with very few exceptions, most people view their salvation as a gift from God, not the result of them following a formula of some sort. They believe baptism is essential to salvation and is the action that shows true faith in accepting that gift.

clint

cdhale
do you believe that a person can get the Holy Spirit before they are forgiven of sin?

[John Oscar]

Saved,
Are you talking about the indwelling, or the baptizm of the Holy Spirit?

Blessings
John O

[saved]

Originally posted by John Oscar
Saved,
Are you talking about the indwelling, or the baptizm of the Holy Spirit?

Blessings
John O

John,
define indewelling.

[cdhale]

Well, Saved...

First, I will answer your question with another question...

Do you think Balaam's donkey was saved before or after she was given the gift of tongues?

Second, I think it is that the normal pattern is for a person to have their sins removed simultaneously to being filled with the Spirit. I think the distinction that we make and that we are discussing here is a false dichotomy that is made up by us folks that have nothing better to do.

Another verse to think about... Acts 22:16. Here Paul has been reviewing his life for three days. He knows Jesus is the risen Lord. He has been praying for three days. Yet Ananias tells him to "get up and wash your sins away." I guess the three days of prayer weren't enough, huh?

your friendly devils advocate,
clint

[John Oscar]

Pentecostals recognize two moves of the Holy Spirit in our lives. The first comes when we get saved, and is the restoration of what we had in the garden of Eden; that is God living in us through the Holy Spirit:

John 20:21-23

21 Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
NIV

The second move of the Holy Spirit is when we recieve the baptizm of the Holy Spirit, which is an empowering for service:

Acts 1:8
8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."


Acts 2:1-4
2:1 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

I hope that clarify's where I"m coming from.

Blessings

John O

[saved]

Originally posted by cdhale
Well, Saved...

First, I will answer your question with another question...

Do you think Balaam's donkey was saved before or after she was given the gift of tongues?

Second, I think it is that the normal pattern is for a person to have their sins removed simultaneously to being filled with the Spirit. I think the distinction that we make and that we are discussing here is a false dichotomy that is made up by us folks that have nothing better to do.

Another verse to think about... Acts 22:16. Here Paul has been reviewing his life for three days. He knows Jesus is the risen Lord. He has been praying for three days. Yet Ananias tells him to "get up and wash your sins away." I guess the three days of prayer weren't enough, huh?

your friendly devils advocate,
clint

Your response does not answer my question. So let me ask again;
cdhale
do you believe that a person can get the Holy Spirit before they are forgiven of sin?

[cdhale]

yes, i did answer it. I just didn't answer it the way you want me to so that you can make some predetermined point. You are trying to lead me into a setup so that you can pounce upon my answer, if it is what you think I will answer.

here is what I said that answered your question
"I think it is that the normal pattern is for a person to have their sins removed simultaneously to being filled with the Spirit."

I do not think it before or after. It is simultaneous.

clint

[cdhale]

I did notice that you didn't answer my question though

:D
clint

[saved]

Originally posted by cdhale
yes, i did answer it. I just didn't answer it the way you want me to so that you can make some predetermined point. You are trying to lead me into a setup so that you can pounce upon my answer, if it is what you think I will answer.

here is what I said that answered your question
"I think it is that the normal pattern is for a person to have their sins removed simultaneously to being filled with the Spirit."

I do not think it before or after. It is simultaneous.

clint

OK thank you.

[saved]

Originally posted by John Oscar
Pentecostals recognize two moves of the Holy Spirit in our lives. The first comes when we get saved, and is the restoration of what we had in the garden of Eden; that is God living in us through the Holy Spirit:

John 20:21-23

21 Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
NIV

The second move of the Holy Spirit is when we recieve the baptizm of the Holy Spirit, which is an empowering for service:

Acts 1:8
8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."


Acts 2:1-4
2:1 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

I hope that clarify's where I"m coming from.

Blessings

John O

Well sort of but not exactly. Are you saying that the indwelling is just the claim to salvation and not really the Holy Spirit residing in a person? By the way. I do not believe that salvation is a retoration of what Adam had in the garden. Salvation is greater then what took place in the garden.

[cdhale]

you are welcome

clint

[John Oscar]

When a person gets saved, the Holy Spirit takes up residence in him/her. That is what I believe about the indwelling.

My point about the garden is that one of the ways you could read Gen 3 is that when they saw they were naked, it was because the Holy Spirit had left them...

As far as recieving a baptizm/empowerment by the Holy Spirit, I do believe that some that are not saved have been able, for a short time, be used of God by His Holy Spirit. Balaam, his donkey, King Saul are a few examples.


IMHO

Blessings
John O

[saved]

John,
Those who you used who were human did not have the Spirit residing in them according to the Lord. The Spirit had not been given yet He said. About the donkey I did get a laugh out of that one. I still do not see the correlation of the garden thing. There is nothing that says that they had the Holy Spirit. I think that we would have to read a lot into the text to get that. Just because they knew that they were naked does not suggest that the Spirit revealed that too them or that they ever had Him indwelling them.

What brought this all about was this question;
"do you believe that a person can get the Holy Spirit before they are forgiven of sin?"

The question refers to the Spirit indwelling the person.
Now about your understanding of the baptism of the Spirit. Here is my problem. If those who claim to have some separate manifestation or special power that is called the baptism of the Spirit (which there is no such thing spoken of in the bible it is called baptism with the Holy Spirit) then why do so many that claim this seem to fail in their walk just like those who say that there is no second blessing as some call it? In other words what is your understanding of the purpose of this second blessing.

[Eveningstar]

2Nephi 31:14-21

But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me.
And I heard a voice from the Father, saying: Yea, the words of my Beloved are true and faithful. He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.
And now, my beloved brethren, I know by this that unless a man shall endure to the end, in following the example of the Son of the living God, he cannot be saved.
Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.
And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.
And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.
Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.
And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

[John Oscar]

The function of the 2nd blessing, as you and some charasmatic's refer to it, is found in Acts 1:8:

Acts 1:8

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

It is for power for witnessing, in word, deed, and occassionally miracles.
The reason that I believe in this second move of the Holy Spirit is because it presents a problem not to.

If the Holy Spirit was given at Pentecost only, how do we reconsile that with John 20:22.

John 20:22

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

If there is only one move, then the bible has a contradiction...

Also, Pentecostals see this as a fullfillment of the prophecy of Joel 2:

Joel 2:23-25

23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.

25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.

Joel 2:28-29

28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
KJV

Pentecostals see the former and latter rain as referring to the two moves of the Holy Spirit, first the indwelling at salvation, and second the empowering/baptism for service.

The restoration from what the "cankerworm and planterworm have eaten" is seen as God giving back what the devil tricked man into giving up, ie the Holy Spirit, and the restoration of at least some of the spiritual power that man had in Eden.

I hope this helps clarify where we goofy pentecostals are coming from.

Blessings
John O :p

[saved]

John
Let me deal with some of the scripture you gave first.
Acts 1:8 This passage is a passage looking back to a promise that the Lord gave. It is at this time in Acts an account of it being fulfilled. I agree that it comes with power and authority, but I also believe that it is today given at salvation and not some time afterwards at least for the most part. God can change timings as He sees fit. The problem with what many teach as a second blessing is thta many people want this which is natural and they seek it so much that they open themselves to satan and false gifts.
Acts is a book of transition and has some accounts in it that are never duplicated in any other book or even suggested that they will be. For instance if we want to point to Acts as being the example and say that it is the way God will work throughout the church age then every time that the Spirit comes there has to be a mighty sound with tongues with some sort of literal visible "divided tongues" with fire. Also something that needs to be pointed out, the scripture in and around clearly say that this is the baptism with the Spirit, not some second blessing as some call it.
That is not to say that the Holy Spirit was only given at Pentecost. Remember the mother of John received Him and the baby jumped in her womb. The Holy Spirit today is now given to each person at salvation. As to miracles, gifts such as healing, signs and so on the Spirit is not giving them today in the same way as when starting the church. Now let me clarify. In the lists of gifts that we have recorded the one having the gift was able at will to exercise that gift. There is simply no person on earth today that can heal at will. Yes the Lord may decide on some occasion to use someone for the purpose of healing another or even a group, but when finished there is no gift left. I personally have had this happen to me in prayer. I can account for at least two people who I have prayed for and they were healed on the spot. One was a woman who was in a serious wreck. She was hemoraging on the brain and the Doctors had given up on her and pronounced that she would be dead in a few minutes. I prayed and about fifteen minutes later they re-examined her and she was healed to their surprise. She went home in two days. They could not explain it. Another time I prayed for a man who had a heart attack. he was near dead. The Lord not only healed him of the heart attack he healed him of heart trouble. The man had been on heart medication most his life due to congential heart problems and when they re-examined him there was no trace of him ever being a heart patient, but I have no ability to heal and neither does nayone else today.That was not the case when the church was being established if we read scripture carefully. Thye could heal at will who had the gift. So there is no reason to believe that all the gifts are working as they once did. Yes they are there and activated IF the Spirit so desires, but not like with the starting of the church age.

In John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

I have to admit that this passage can cause some confusion. However we know without a doubt that these men did not receive any special ability at this time, at least in certain powers. We have the account in Acts that explains when they received power. Also I think that we can assume that they did not actually receive the Spirit as they would or like we do today, because of an earlier passage; And let me say this. I do not believe that anyone has ever received the fullness of the Spirit except the Lord Himself. But this is not to suggest that today we get Him in one way and another some time later or what is called the second blessing.
Jhn 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) And the Lord was not yet glorified when this took place.

My understanding here is that when Jesus breathed on them they received the Spirit for one purpose and that was for understanding at least in part. Remember they were really confused at this point. This is just a beginning, but not everything that will come once the church is established.. So to say that the Lord is working in the same way as this I think is not a very good way to understand it. I don't see this as an example of how He will work throughout the church history. These are special times and special things are taking place.

next you referred to Joel. Here is another troubling passage IF we jump into it too quickly. Yes Peter does quote part of Joel. However my understanding is that he is not saying that these things are all happening at that time. He is trying to show that the last days have started. Although when reading what Peter quoted from Joel it is easy to come up with the idea this will all take place right then but we can positively know that it did not and would not if we go back to Joel and read the account itself.

The things that Joel mentioned are things that will take place in the last days, but not all will take place at the same time and certainly not allat Pentacost. They are spread out over the period of time which is called the last days and much of it will not happen until after the tribulation and on into the millennium. The reason we know this is because of verse 28. it says;
And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

First off not all people today have had the Spirit poured out on them. It does not say all who are saved. it says all flesh. That has not happened and is not happening yet. This is speaking primarily of Israel and the afterwards is speaking after the preceding verses, if you read carefully we all can see they have not happened yet. So it would be a mistake to suggest that this is referring to any kind of Holy Spirit second blessing for the church. It is not. That is not the intent of Peter or the text in Joel.

Now let me say this. This a is all very difficult to explain in a short text as this. But what I would suggest is that we lay aside what we hold as correct and go back and re-read Joel and if we do this with an open mind I think that we have to come up with the understanding that the passages that Peter uses are not intended to be understood as being fulfilled literally at that time. They are simply being used to show that this is the time period in which Joel is speaking of when they WILL be fulfilled and the timing can and will be spread over many years and events even thousands of years.

[Little Lamb]

saved,

I for one enjoyed that post a whole lot. It helped me love the Lord more. You showed me He does answer prayer. I know He does, but it's different when you were talking about you praying for someone. I wonder how many prayers the Lord has answered of mine when I prayed for a sick one.

Our prayers do matter to our Heavenly Father. He loves His children.

The post was such a blessing to me.

[Doma]

saved has a concern a very good sister in the Lord once had. She refused to believe in prophets because there are false prophets.

My question is this, are we gonna stop using money because there is counterfeit money? No!

Paul said something similar when he spoke of sin brings grace, is he gonna preach sin? No! But he won't stop the truth either.

Yes folks do sin and error within the Baptism of the Holy Spirit movement, but that doesn't mean the real doesn't take place. We must do as Paul says and do it rightly. But this takes practice, it's sorry to see very few churches have actual classes on practicing the gifts. I have been to such a school myself.

[saved]

Originally posted by Little Lamb
saved,

I for one enjoyed that post a whole lot. It helped me love the Lord more. You showed me He does answer prayer. I know He does, but it's different when you were talking about you praying for someone. I wonder how many prayers the Lord has answered of mine when I prayed for a sick one.

Our prayers do matter to our Heavenly Father. He loves His children.

The post was such a blessing to me.

Yes He does answer prayer and we can praise Him for it. As one who attends a Baptist church it is sad that many of them have lost or forgotten that God can and will still heal and answer our prayers. While many of the modern day Pentecostal churches and non denominational churches have distorted certain gifts to the point of making the Lord some grab bag of filler of wants many Baptist churches have forgotten that he will give us what we ask if we ask in faith. We need to understand however that faith is not just believing something will happen. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God and faith is the substance of things hope for and the evidence of things not seen.

[John Oscar]

Saved,
I guess we will have to agree to disagree...
I think that you are making the scripture fit your own preconcieved notions, but you would probably say the same thing about me and the rest of Pentecostal theology.

Either way, bless you!

John O

[saved]

Originally posted by John Oscar
Saved,
I guess we will have to agree to disagree...
I think that you are making the scripture fit your own preconcieved notions, but you would probably say the same thing about me and the rest of Pentecostal theology.

Either way, bless you!

John O

John,
Of course I cannot say that you are absolutely incorrect when you say,
"I think that you are making the scripture fit your own preconceived notions" since I understand, at least in part, how deceptive that the heart can be and how well Satan knows how to manipulate it. I can however say this. I seriously doubt that what I hold as being correct on this issue as coming from any "preconceived notions." The reason is that I once held that the tongues of today are of the Lord as well as what is being called the Baptism of the Spirit or second blessing. However after a great deal of prayer and study I am convinced that such is not the case. It took a long time for me to come to the conclusion I have now, but I am very much at peace with it and when I re-read scripture on this issue it not only proves my belief but it opens up even greater understandings. Needless to say it took a great deal of wrestling with self and the Lord as well to change my mind on such an issue, but I am convinced in this today.

One thing I do pride myself in is that I have absolutely no allegiance to any denomination, theological stance, or individual, at least as far as I can examine myself, so as to not be swayed away from the leading of the Spirit, but the Lord will be the final judge on this. All I care about is truth and I am willing to give up whatever that takes to receive it, and I honestly believe it takes giving up a great deal.

When looking at the claims of today's tongues, second blessing or what ever title one might like to fix to this today I am always drawn back to the same things. What is the purpose and to be honest even though some give reasons for what they claim to be experiencing the results are the same. They still battle with the same sin as every other believer. They still fall to those sins at the same rates as any other believer. They have no more ability to get God to heal, save loved one's, or take care of them through material needs then any other believer. Yes I know they claim that this all happens, but when there is actually any real study done the results are the same as any other believer.

As a matter of fact some of the greatest proponents of what we are discussing have fallen greatly themselves. Ministries are no greater in this movement then any other. So if I were going to base my belief alone on the evidence I see before I even read the bible I would at least come up with a great deal of questions and doubts. However when I look into scripture as to what is being said about this issue it simply does not fit. What I am seeing is some are having experiences that they are attributing to God without a real biblical bases for them. I wish that this was not the case. I would like to say that this is all real and of the Lord, but based on scripture it simply fails the test.

[John Oscar]

Saved,
That's all good, but I have also studied, prayed, and thought about the same issues, and I also hold no loyality per se to a denomination.
I even believe differently then my own pastor on the subject.

So, again we will have to agree to disagree :)

Blessings
John O

[Buzzard]

Hey, Guys & Gals;

Baptism, the old way;

The Ashes of Da Red Heifer

http://www.theologyreview.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=496

There Ain't --"No Magic"-- in the Soap

There Ain't --"No Magic"-- In Jacobs Tea

And

There ain't –“No Magic”-- in the Water;
ie:
Baptism

Buzz:

Buy it by the case and
It comes in a Box you can find other uses for

:green:

[kevingaily]

Originally posted by John Oscar
Saved,
That's all good, but I have also studied, prayed, and thought about the same issues, and I also hold no loyality per se to a denomination.
I even believe differently then my own pastor on the subject.

So, again we will have to agree to disagree :)

Blessings
John O

I agree. We all can study and pray and be at peace with our decisions.....and still be wrong. Trust me on this one :D I've been wrong enough to know that!!! :banana:

This is why the fellowship with other believers is so important. If we get off on a tiff then we can get into trouble. No man is an island. We need each other, the Lord made that clear. Together we sharpen and grow each other. It's a body of Christ thing.

Most of the weird cultic views out there came when someone got their own personal "revelation" from God and felt the others were wrong, but they were right.

So while I agree we should stress our oneness with Christ rather than our particular denomination or doctrine, we need to be careful lest we become isolated and forget that we are brothers and sisters. I will not forget, to the degree I'm able, that if I disagree with you that I am to love you all and esteem you as higher than myself. Jesus said that true leadership is humility, and even when we correct each other it's to be done with meekness and fear, understanding how much we ourselves are apt to corrupt and to mishandle truth.

Together, with open minds, we can grow. However, if we draw battle lines and say we will not alter our views and will die by them(NOT talking about the Basic tennents of our Faith) we may miss out on so much. I keep learning more as I go. From you guys, and others too. I still, from time to time, find that I didn't see something clearly, or have the "complete picture."

I think if we focused more on understanding each other rather than proving our stances we would grow like crazy. We have our set views, and may even appear to piously be open to change, yet it be a facade. Because deep down we want to be right. In our eyes we think we are right and unless overwhelmed with the truth of another matter, will not budge. Even then we have a tendency to rather go down with the ship, rather than change.

It's about having a teachable spirit. We act like a bunch of teenagers sometimes... you know, we know it all already! :D Yet the truth is we know so little.

I have a challenge for us all. If you're up to it..... When you or I disagree with someone. Do your best to put yourself in their shoes and see where they're comming from rather than simply attacking their view. I don't wanna hear, oh I tried that before and came to a different conclusion. I'm talking about now. We may have been wrong before on our assumptions. Let's try to grow and learn in the spirit of brotherly and godly love.

disclaimer: this post is a general one and not to anyone in general. I want to avoid someone thinking I'm picking at/on them! :)

[Eveningstar]

Mosiah 18:8-10

And it came to pass that he said unto them: Behold, here are the waters of Mormon (for thus were they called) and now, as ye are desirous to come into the fold of God, and to be called his people, and are willing to bear one another’s burdens, that they may be light;
Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life—
Now I say unto you, if this be the desire of your hearts, what have you against being baptized in the name of the Lord, as a witness before him that ye have entered into a covenant with him, that ye will serve him and keep his commandments, that he may pour out his Spirit more abundantly upon you?


Moroni 6:1-4
AND now I speak concerning baptism. Behold, elders, priests, and teachers were baptized; and they were not baptized save they brought forth fruit meet that they were worthy of it.
Neither did they receive any unto baptism save they came forth with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, and witnessed unto the church that they truly repented of all their sins.
And none were received unto baptism save they took upon them the name of Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end.
And after they had been received unto baptism, and were wrought upon and cleansed by the power of the Holy Ghost, they were numbered among the people of the church of Christ; and their names were taken, that they might be remembered and nourished by the good word of God, to keep them in the right way, to keep them continually watchful unto prayer, relying alone upon the merits of Christ, who was the author and the finisher of their faith.


D&C 20:37

And again, by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptism—All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church.