A Coming Persecution

[Donny Short]

I am not sure when it is going to happen but a Holy War of sorts is on the horizion.

God is going to draw a line in the sand and separate the true Church from the cults. many of these cults are going to call themselves Christian but their fruits will show otherwise. God is going to expose them.

God did a wonderful and mighty thing when he exposed the crime, coverup, corruption, and horror of the catholic church and their many child molesting priests. We know now that the coverup for this went as high as the pope.

The dividing line is going to be the issue of homosexuality. This is what the catholics really hid. These priests were sodomites who preyed on little boys. The homosexual issue is going to become the center point of debate in many denominations.

Churches who support it and denominations who promote it are going to complain about those of us who preach against this act. They will accuse us of being haters, against unity, un-forgiving and such the like.

They are going to turn to the government for help and laws are going to be passed that reach further that the hate crimes act.

The American government is going to approve of homosexual marriage and one by one states are going pass laws allowing sodomites to marry.

In order to keep the peace laws are going to be passed and many preachers are going to be jailed for preaching against this terrible sin.

Those who accept and support sodomy are going to be rejected by God. he is going to cast them aside and refuse to hear them.

While all of this is going a merciful God is still going to try to get our attention. Another plague is going to come upon homosexuals worse than AIDS. There is going to be more terror attacks worse than 9/11. More deaths from things like the flu than we have ever seen.

But we won't listen, like in the past when God sends warnings to America we will respond with arrogance rather than humility.

Ministers are going to be forced to either face prision or preach the truth. A strong persecution is going to come against the Church that lives for Jesus. Some are even going to be killed for their faith. This persecution is going to drive the bride of Christ to her knees in deep prayer. This persecution is going to be the very tool that God uses to find out who belongs to him and who don't. The day is coming in America that to go to Church you will be putting your life on the line.

We had better pray like we have never prayed before. we need to get out of the textbooks and get a hold of the horns of the altar. We need a relationship with God and not just knowledge about God.

For those who trust Jesus and love him always remember he will never leave you. He will keep you and you will be the apple of his eye. Don't worry about what man can do to you, the Lord says for you to remember him and his faithfullness. Look at the saints of old who were thrown in the fire yet never burned. Stay in prayer, and stay in love with Jesus and he will keep you no matter what comes your way.

[Little Lamb]

Donny,

What you say is very true. Right now, sodomite marriages aren't accepted, but they will be. It's just a matter of time. The sodomites are out and intend to stay out.

I believe sodomite marriages are accepted in Canada, so it's just a matter of time.

When the persecution hits, the Lord knows who will stand and who will fall. We ourselves will find out where we stand when persecution hits. It will be a strengthing for some, and a weakening for others.

I feel a lot of people say we must always remember what happened on 9 - 11, but we have already forgotten the impact. Flags were on a lot of cars. That has stopped. People drew nigh to God, that has stopped. I feel we've already forgotten the impact it had on us.

People wondered where God was during 9 - 11. Yet we take Him out of our schools because of Him being offensive. We take Him out of our lives. We want nothing to do with Him, yet we wonder why He didn't help us on 9 -11. Why should He? We pushed Him away from everything else!

Christians need to take a stand. I need to take a stand. The Lord will have to show me how.

The reason I use "we" is because the Christian sat idly by and let it happen. I'm guilty of it too.

Through God we can make a difference. We must let Him work.

[TrueDay]

I think you are right with what you are saying but for one Thing. I think it will be over the Day of Worship.

God made the world. and His seal is the 7th Day Sabbath.

Satan took the world and moved the day of worship to sunday the first day of the week. Sunday worship goes clear back to the tower of Babel.

The catholic church is pushing for the New World Order and the USA is the forch behind it all. You can only have a New World Order if everone worship on the same day.

God Tells us The Sabbath is His day and we will inreturn worship him as Lord of our life and Lord of the World on the 7th Day of the week.

This in turn will make Satan mad, and push for the New World Order to Kill all those that will not worship on Sunday.

[Donny Short]

Sorry trueday, the day of worship has nothing to do with it.

This is a trivial issue and should not even be considered.

The real threat to the Church is the compromise given to sodomites.

[TrueDay]

Originally posted by Donny Short
Sorry trueday, the day of worship has nothing to do with it.

This is a trivial issue and should not even be considered.

The real threat to the Church is the compromise given to sodomites.

I do think that we should follow along with what the Bible has to say in Revelation. Yes Sodome is part of the falling away from the truth, BUT it is not the Mark of the Beast. [see Revelation 14:11}

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

John speaks about a people that Keep the commandments of God. Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exodus 20:4
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exodus 20:5
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exodus 20:6
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Exodus 20:7
7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
Exodus 20:8
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exodus 20:9
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exodus 20:10
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exodus 20:11
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Exodus 20:12
12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
Exodus 20:13
13 Thou shalt not kill.
Exodus 20:14
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Exodus 20:15
15 Thou shalt not steal.
Exodus 20:16
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Exodus 20:17
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's."

This is the Commandments of God that the followers of God in the very last days will be obeying.

You will see in verse 8 that the 7th day of the week is the Sabbath of God.

Genesis 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Genesis 2:3
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made."

At the very begining of the world God set the 7th Day aside and made it Holy.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."

We see that at the very end of the Bible, only those that keep all ten of the commandments of God will be in Heaven and have the right to the tree of life.

Isaiah tells us in chapter 66 "22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isaiah 66:23
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD."

In the new earth the 7th day Sabbath will be the day of worship.

Jesus tells us in Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Matthew 5:18
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Matthew 5:19
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Now the last time I checked the earth is still here, so the 4th commandment is still the day of worship.

What is the Sabbath?

Ezekiel 20:19 I am the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them;
Ezekiel 20:20
20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God."

The Sabbath is a sign, it is God's sign that we my know that He is Lord of our life.

Satan has His sign also, it is called a mark in Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

The issue is not sodomites, the issue is who do we follow. Do we follow Satan and have His mark, or do we follow Christ and have His Sign or Mark

The problem with the sodomites is a sign of the end but it is not the Mark of the Beast.

The day of worship has EVERY thing to do with it. Soon, very Soon You will see the Sunday law being inforced. Just one more big thing like 9/11 and it will be. Our freedoms are gone and the end is at hand.

Study on my friend.

[Donny Short]

I am not sure why or how people can come up with this stuff.

The word that i gave here was one the Lord gave me concerning a coming persecution because of the homosexual problem. It has nothing at all to do with what you are trying to say.

I know the Bible very well and I also know when God gives me a message.

Why can't you go get your own word from God and quit trying to add to what I have to say?

The Word is a strong persecution is coming against those who oppose homosexual activity.

The message I gave has nothing to do with worship or which day to worship on.

By the way wonder why Jesus told folks if they had something that must be done on the "day of worship" as you call it he told them to go and do it.

I know full well how to study.

[TrueDay]

Originally posted by Donny Short
I am not sure why or how people can come up with this stuff.

The word that i gave here was one the Lord gave me concerning a coming persecution because of the homosexual problem. It has nothing at all to do with what you are trying to say.

I know the Bible very well and I also know when God gives me a message.

Why can't you go get your own word from God and quit trying to add to what I have to say?

The Word is a strong persecution is coming against those who oppose homosexual activity.

The message I gave has nothing to do with worship or which day to worship on.

By the way wonder why Jesus told folks if they had something
that must be done on the "day of worship" as you call it he told them to go and do it.

I know full well how to study.

Revelation tells us what is going to happen to us very shortly. This is the Word that God has given us. God does not change His mind, everything that He has told us will happen. All prophecy in the Bible go hand in glove, it all fits together. Read Daniel and Revelation, thy work together. I am not sure where you are getting your [word from God] all I know is that it is not in Daniel or in Revelation.

All that we need is right here in the Bible. Ask your self this

1. who is the Beast?
2. What is the mark of the Beast?
3. If there is a mark of the Beast, then what is the mark of God?
4. What is the Battle for this world about?
5. How do we know that we are on the right side?


You said; "Why can't you go get your own word from God and quit trying to add to what I have to say?"

My friend, we all have the same word from God, it is the Bible. Revelation tells us in Chapter 22 verse 18,19 "...If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

I cannot go out and get a new message from God that is against what is in the Bible and nether can any one else.

What I have given you is all in the Bible, I have given you verse by verse about how the Sabbath is the issue that will bring on the end. IF you have more light then give us from the Bible all the information. Where are the verses from Daniel and Revelation that will support what you are saying?

I know from your post that you are a God fearing man, but please Sir, I cannot follow a man blindly, noone can. Give us the Bible, The word of God is our light to guide us in this dark old world.

My word from the Lord is this. Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

I must follow the Lord, my friend, Please if you have more light then show it from the Bible and the Bible only.

[2tim]

Actually, True Day has hit the nail on the proverbial head.

The issue between God and Satan is and always has been, WORSHIP.

Donny, the word of God confirms this. If what you are "hearing" does not agree, I might question it's source.

Sometimes when we start a discussion (this is a discussion forum) people will say things that seem like they have "nothing at all to do with what you are trying to say." It happens.

You said, "I know the Bible very well and I also know when God gives me a message."

Very well. What did Satan want from Jesus? (Look in Matthew 4:9)

You said, "The message I gave has nothing to do with worship or which day to worship on." Perhaps not. But you did claim that it homosexuality would be the "dividing line," and someone disagreed.

It happens.

You said, "I know full well how to study." I'm sure that parenthetically you were giving the glory to God, Amen?

[itsjustdave1988]

Does anybody have a proposed date for these conflicting prophesies, or should I assume them to be perpetually imminent, perpetually "on the horizon"? Would it be say, in our lifetime? In the next 100 years? Next 500 years? 1000? Hmmmm?

[itsjustdave1988]

TrueDay,

I was under the impression that the prophecy was that of a Protestant state-religion (image of the Catholic beast) that the US would force everyone to join, no? Of course, this was imminent in the 1800s, if I'm not mistaken.

[TrueDay]

Originally posted by itsjustdave1988
TrueDay,

I was under the impression that the prophecy was that of a Protestant state-religion (image of the Catholic beast) that the US would force everyone to join, no? Of course, this was imminent in the 1800s, if I'm not mistaken.

I believe that you are right in what you are saying. We see today that the Catholic Church is bring all churches into a command belife. Thy are coming together only on the points that thy can agree on so that peace will be for all nations.

What I see happening today is over in Europe The Catholic Church is the head and is the one pushing for unity. Over here in the U. S. we see the Protestant Church are the ones pushing for unity and now I see a start for a day of rest {Sunday} by a lot of Evangelicals.

The U.S. will be the force behind this movement both Here and over in Europe.

By the way over in India the busniess are closeing down on Sunday now, not for the Catholic church sake but to stay with the stock market.

What does it say in Revelation? The mark will be in the HAND (so you can work and eat) or in the fore head (believe that sunday is true)

[TrueDay]

Originally posted by itsjustdave1988
Does anybody have a proposed date for these conflicting prophesies, or should I assume them to be perpetually imminent, perpetually "on the horizon"? Would it be say, in our lifetime? In the next 100 years? Next 500 years? 1000? Hmmmm?

Dave

We are seeing the begining of the end now. We may have only months left or at the most 1 or 2 years left. If I am wrong I will be the first to say so, but I see a people getting ready for the Lords return.

Lets strive to be Like Jesus.

[itsjustdave1988]

Trueday,

I certainly hope people are preparing for the coming of the Lord. However, I believe people have been preparing for the past 2000 years, as they should. I agree that we should strive to be Christ-like, even if it ends up being another 1000 years instead of the months or years that you predict.

For me, the end may come without notice, as at any time I may just up and die. After death, it's too late to repent. So I strive to be live as I believe Christ desires, always. I don't need new interpretations of Scriptural prophesy to motivate me.

[TrueDay]

Originally posted by itsjustdave1988
Trueday,

I certainly hope people are preparing for the coming of the Lord. However, I believe people have been preparing for the past 2000 years, as they should. I agree that we should strive to be Christ-like, even if it ends up being another 1000 years instead of the months or years that you predict.

For me, the end may come without notice, as at any time I may just up and die. After death, it's too late to repent. So I strive to be live as I believe Christ desires, always. I don't need new interpretations of Scriptural prophesy to motivate me.

I hope this Christmas is finding you in good health. Yes the Lord can call us at a moment of time. We must be ready.

[saved]

Donny,
that is an interesting prophesy. I assume that you are posing it as a prophesy by what you said. I certainly have no question that the issue of homosexuality and the church will have some sort of battle. We will see if what you have said goes to the extent you say.
I will say this however. The church has to fall away from sound doctrine. The Lord will permit this and then the end will come according to scripture. We just do not know when. For those who stand for God they will stand against homosexuality. For those who do not they will give in to the pressures that may come. In all, we need not fear, but stand against all unrighteousness and live as men and women of God without fear or shame. By the way. I just about fell out of my chair over the sabbath issue that was mentioned. How anyone can believe that God cares what day of the week we come together into a certain building is beyond me and is sooo very hypocritical when they themselves do not keep the sabbath laws of the Old testament. :think:

[2tim]

Saved,

Climb back in your chair, go to the Sabbath thread, and please prove to me from Scripture that I, a "Sabbatarian," have broken God's Law regarding the Sabbath.

And take care...

Should your accusation prove false I will accept your earnest appology of course.

[TrueDay]

[How anyone can believe that God cares what day of the week we come together into a certain building is beyond me and is sooo very hypocritical when they themselves do not keep the sabbath laws of the Old testament.]

My Friend, the Sabbath of the 10 commandments was given to the world at the begining.

Genesis 2:2 "And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made."

Verse 3. "AND GOD BLESSED THE SEVENTH DAY, AND SANCTIFIED IT: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made."

My friend, this is God's seal of owership of the world. The Sabbaths that you are refering to, were givin to the Jews. (see the book of Leviticus) These Holy days of the Jews all pointed to the life of Christ and his work.

Hebrews 9:1 "Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary."

The Book of Hebrews is talking about the system of worship that was givin to the Jews. The Jews that became Christens were trying to make the Genteils Christens keep all the old covenant ordinances and divine service. Now note in Chapter 8:9,10.

verse 9 "NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY CONTINUED NOT IN MY COVENANT, AND I REGARDED THEM NOT, SAITH THE LORD."

VERSE 10 "FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAITH THE LORD; I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MIND, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS: AND I WILL BE TO THEM A GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE TO ME A PEOPLE:"

Now Saved, please note that the Lord said that He would "PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MIND, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS". Now my friend were do we find the Law of God? Exodus 20: 2-17 the 10 Commandments, the same 10 Commandments I might add that we are fighting the goverment to keep in our Schools and Court buildings. Also please note that in verse 8 God said, "REMEMBER THE SABBATH DAY TO KEEP IT HOLY. (VERSE 9) SIX DAYS SHALT THOU LABOUR, AND DO ALL THY WORK: (VERSE 10) BUT THE SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH OF THE LORD THY GOD: ...." and down in verse 11 we read "For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbathe day, and Hallowed it."

My friend, the Lord said "REMEMBER", He did not say I have a new day for you to keep, He said "Remember". The 7th Day Sabbath was started back in the garden of eden as a sign of ownership of this world. God restated the 10 Commandments at Mount Sinai.

Now Saved you said, [How anyone can believe that God cares what day of the week we come together into a certain building is beyond me]. May I put it to you this way.

1. The 7th day was set aside by God to show His ownership to the World.

2. We keep the 7th Day Holy to show that God's ownership over us.

3. We keep the 7th Day Holy to show our Love a devotion to Him who died for us.

Remember in verse 10 of Hebrews 8 the Lord said that "I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MIND, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS:" Now my friend I ask you, do you have the Law if God in your heart and in your mind?

Jesus tells us in Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Matthew 5:18
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

The forth commandment is still Part of the 10 commandments and we need to keep it just like we keep the other 9 commandments.

Jesus tells us that if we brake one of the commandments we brake them all. Look around the world today and you will see that most of the people in the world are braking the Commandments from the pope on down to the last church you can think of. Remember, if you brake one you brake them all.

It all comes down to who owns the world, who owns you and me.

By the way it is not hypocritical to follow the Lord and to have ALL of his Laws in your heart. It is VERY HYPOCRITICAL to say that you keep Gods Laws but throw out one of them.

[John Oscar]

Col 2:13-17

13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
NIV

Just some food for thought.

Blessings
John O

[saved]

Originally posted by 2tim
Saved,

Climb back in your chair, go to the Sabbath thread, and please prove to me from Scripture that I, a "Sabbatarian," have broken God's Law regarding the Sabbath.

And take care...

Should your accusation prove false I will accept your earnest appology of course.
I have posted my response in the thread you asked. I will be waiting for your response.

[TrueDay]

Originally posted by John Oscar
Col 2:13-17

13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
NIV

Just some food for thought.

Blessings
John O

Very good quote John. Why not start with verse 12 "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."

My Friend, what happens at baptism? All our sins are washed away, right!

1. we are no longer under the Law or have to the pay the price for sinning..

Now go down to verse 22, "...after the commandments and doctrines of men?" The blotting out of the handwriting of ordinances that was against us in verse 14 were written by Moses and put in the side of the ark. The 10 Commandments were written by God Himself on stone and put under the mercy set.

I am talking about the everlasting Law of God and you are talking about the ordinances put in place by moses.

1. Moses ordinances were nailed to the cross.
2. Gods 10 commandments (Law) will last forever.

Something to think about.

After you go through baptism and your sins are all washed away, (no longer under sin) Can you keep on braking the 10 Commandments?

[John Oscar]

Well, whose interpretation of what we can and cannot do on the sabbath do you follow?
Strict Jews will not even turn on a light switch on the sabbath, as they consider that work (I've always found it interesting that that they will call others to do their work for them, and thus causing them to sin according to their law).
I'm a paramedic and a pastor, and work on every sabbath, either on the ambulance or in the church. Does that make me a sinner?

Christ said
Matt 12:8
8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

and

Matt 12:12
Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."

and

Mark 2:27

27 Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

God gets no benifit from us resting one day. He realized that man would need a day of rest and refocusing back on his creator to live a life that would be pleasing to Him.


The law is meant to point us to holy living, and has nothing to do with our salvation. It is the judge of the sinner, and the help of the saved to live holy, but it is not the way of salvation. Only through faith in Christ are we saved.

That is the point I was trying to make with the previous posted verse. One of the paradoxs of our faith is that anything added to the cross diminishes the cross.

Blessings
John O

[TrueDay]

Originally posted by John Oscar
Well, whose interpretation of what we can and cannot do on the sabbath do you follow?
Strict Jews will not even turn on a light switch on the sabbath, as they consider that work (I've always found it interesting that that they will call others to do their work for them, and thus causing them to sin according to their law).
I'm a paramedic and a pastor, and work on every sabbath, either on the ambulance or in the church. Does that make me a sinner?

Christ said
Matt 12:8
8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

and

Matt 12:12
Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."

and

Mark 2:27

27 Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

God gets no benifit from us resting one day. He realized that man would need a day of rest and refocusing back on his creator to live a life that would be pleasing to Him.


The law is meant to point us to holy living, and has nothing to do with our salvation. It is the judge of the sinner, and the help of the saved to live holy, but it is not the way of salvation. Only through faith in Christ are we saved.

That is the point I was trying to make with the previous posted verse. One of the paradoxs of our faith is that anything added to the cross diminishes the cross.

Blessings
John O

I agree with you that we are saved through faith in Christ, it is by His blood that our sins are forgivin.

What is Sin?

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. "

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is thetransgression of the law.

So my friend are you telling me that we are to keep right on sinning?

[me again]

Posted by John Oscar
Snip...
Col 2:13-17
16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. NIV I am re-reading the N.T. I will be anxious to re-read the above scripture, in context, when I get to it -- which could be a long ways away, as I'm only at Matthew 11 now!!!

It is taking me a good 20 to 30 minutes to read one chapter a day, but it is a glorious half-hour because my mind is flooded with meditations and thoughts and speculations as I read through this glorious revelatory book!!! Ah, the N.T. is wonderful!!! :me:

To God be the glory. :good:

< steps off soap box >

[TrueDay]

John O

the true meaning of the Sabbath had been obscured by the multitude of restrictions laid upon its observance; it had become largely external and formal. And, of course, as the rules surrounding the observance of the Sabbath multiplied, so did the fanciful and far-fetched rituals to circumvent them.

It was Jesus' custom to attend the synagogue on the Sabbath. It was inevitable that Jesus would come into conflict with the Jewish leadership over the Sabbath.

In His teaching He upheld the authority and validity of the Mosaic Law. His emphasis, however, was not on the external observance of the law, but on a spontaneous performance of the will of God which underlaid the law.

In regards to the Sabbath, He clarified the true meaning by showing the original purpose for its institution:

The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath . - Mark 2:27

Six Conflicts

Jesus asserted His lordship over the Sabbath. He defended His disciples for plucking grain on the Sabbath by alluding to the time when David and his men ate the bread of the Presence. In so doing, Jesus placed the Sabbath commandment in the same class as the ceremonial law. Human need had precedence over the ceremonial requirements.

He also reminded His critics that the priests in the Temple profaned the Sabbath and were held guiltless. He referred to the circumcision of a male on the Sabbath Day.

Jesus expressed anger over those at Capernaum who showed more concern for the punctilious observance of the Sabbath than for a human being who was deprived of the use of a hand. Likewise, he was angered by the ruler of the synagogue who became indignant when Jesus healed a woman who had a spirit of infirmity for 18 years.

There were seven healings on the Sabbath. (However, there were also healings on other non-Sabbath days. ) In all of these instances, Jesus showed that He placed human need above mere external ceremonial observance of the Sabbath. He never did or said anything to suggest that He intended to take away from man the privileges afforded by such a day of rest.

[John Oscar]

Okay, so what is the problem?

I'm not quite sure of how your point proves some of your original assertations concerning the keeping of the sabbath.

Blessings
John O

[John Oscar]

Sorry, I did not read the post above the other post.

No, of course it is not okay to keep sinning after we are saved, but you and I are arguing from two different sides of the same spectrum. You are emphasising law, and I grace.

A Christian will love the moral law of God, and seek the deep meaning of the ceremonial law, but again, our position of merit/salvation before God does not change with obedience or disobedience with the law, but rests on Christ alone.

Blessings,
John O

[TrueDay]

Originally posted by John Oscar
Sorry, I did not read the post above the other post.

No, of course it is not okay to keep sinning after we are saved, but you and I are arguing from two different sides of the same spectrum. You are emphasising law, and I grace.

A Christian will love the moral law of God, and seek the deep meaning of the ceremonial law, but again, our position of merit/salvation before God does not change with obedience or disobedience with the law, but rests on Christ alone.

Blessings,
John O

The moral law of God = the Ten commandments. How can you say you love the moral law of God and refuse to keep the 4th commandment?

Your quote is "No, of course it is not okay to keep sinning after we are saved" then why keep on sinning by braking the 4th? Remember that the Sabbath commandment is NOT and Jewish Law it is the Law of God and was not givin to the Jews only. When was the Sabbath Law givin? It was givin on the last day of the Creation week to Adam and Eve.

John, In Revelation 14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, and the faith of Jesus." Now how can you be one of the saints when you are not keeping all of the commandments of God?

From the begining of the Bible all the way to the end, the Lord talks about keeping the 7th day Sabbath.

Which day did God bless and sanctify? The seventh day. How was it to be kept holy? By resting. Could any of the other six be kept holy? No. Why? Because God commanded not to rest those days but to work. Does God's blessing make a difference? Of course. This is why parents pray for God to bless their children. They believe it makes a difference. The seventh day is different from all the other six days, because it has God's blessing.

Some more questions: Why did God bless the day? Because He had created the world in six days. It was the birthday of the world, a memorial of a mighty act. Can the Sabbath memorial be changed? Never. Because it points backward to an accomplished fact. July 4 is Independence Day. Can it be changed? No. Because the Declaration of Independence was signed on July 4, 1776. Your birthday cannot be changed, either. It is a memorial of your birth, which happened on a set day. History would have to run through again to change your birthday, to change Independence Day, or to change the Sabbath day. We can call another day Independence Day, and we can call another day the Sabbath, but that does not make it so.

Did God ever give man the privilege of choosing his own day of rest? He did not. In fact, God confirmed in the Bible that the Sabbath was settled and sealed by His own divine selection and should not be tampered with. Read Exodus 16 concerning the giving of manna. For 40 years God worked three miracles every week to show Israel which day was holy. (1) No manna fell on the seventh day. (2) They could not keep it overnight without spoilage, but (3) when they kept it over the Sabbath, it remained sweet and fresh.

But some Israelites had the same idea as many modern Christians. They felt that any day in seven would be all right to keep holy: "And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none. And the Lord said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?" Exodus 16:27, 28.

Paul clearly identified Jesus as the Creator, "... his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood. ... For by him were all things created." Colossians 1:13-16.
For Christians to separate Jesus from the Sabbath is a tragic mistake. For He is the Author, the Maker, the Sanctifier, and the Architect of the Sabbath. To discount the blessing which He placed on that day is to deny His authority.

Paul referred to the temporary system of ordinances in Colossians 2:14-16 as being "against us" and "contrary to us." He tied it to the meat offerings, drink offerings, and yearly festivals of the law that was "blotted out." It is true he referred to sabbaths also in the text, but take careful note that he called them "sabbath days which are a shadow of things to come." Were some sabbath days blotted out at the cross? Yes, there were at least four yearly sabbaths which came on certain set days of the month, and they were nailed to the cross. They were shadows and required specified meat and drink offerings. All of these annual sabbaths are described in Leviticus 23:24-36, and then summarized in verses 37 and 38: "These are the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day: beside the sabbaths of the Lord."

This argument has led many to believe that the Sabbath existed only for a limited period of time following creation. But is this a fact? Actually, the Sabbath could never be just a type or shadow of anything, for the simple reason that it was made before sin entered the human family. Certain shadows and typical observances were instituted as a result of sin and pointed forward to the deliverance from sin. Such were the sacrifices employed to symbolize the death of Jesus, the Lamb of God. There would have been no animal sacrifices had there been no sin. These offerings were abolished when Christ died on the cross, because the types had met their fulfillment (Matthew 27:51). But no shadow existed before sin entered this world; therefore, the Sabbath could not be included in the ceremonial law of types and shadows.

The Scripture plainly differentiates between the annual, shadowy sabbaths and the weekly "sabbaths of the Lord." The ceremonial sabbaths were blotted out at the cross; they had been added as a consequence of sin. But the Sabbath of the Ten-Commandment law had been hallowed before sin was introduced and was later incorporated into the great moral law written by the finger of God. It was eternal in its very nature.

John you said, "You are emphasising law, and I grace."
Law and grace do not work in competition with each other but in perfect cooperation. The law points out sin, and grace saves from sin. The law is the will of God, and grace is the power to do the will of God. We do not obey the law in order to be saved but because we are saved. A beautiful text which combines the two in their true relationship is Revelation 14:12. "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." What a perfect description of faith and works! And the combination is found in those who are "saints."

Keep looking up my friend, the word of God will lead us into all truth.

[saved]

TrueDay,
I would like to discuss the sabbath with you but not in this thread since it distroy the topic of the thread and is unfair to the starter of the thread. I have posted some issues about the sabbath in a sabbath thread. I would like to hear you input and response on the issue.

[John Oscar]

Again, you are quoting law in order to keep us favorable with God, and using it to judge others.

Christ did work on the Sabbath. That is what the bible teaches. You can try and explain it away, but the simple exegesis of the passage says that He did was was against the law at the time, which means He had the correct interpretation of the law.

Following His example and His word, it is okay to do what is good on the Sabbath. I professions (in my opinion) that have to work on the Sabbath are Protective services such as police, firefighters, paramedics, health care workers, pharmacists, other technical services such as emergency calls for electricians, plumbers, ect.

They would all be doing good on the Sabbath.

Let me ask you, if your child were choking to death on the Sabbath, would you just shrug and say, "Well, sorry honey, but that is God's will for me to watch you die?", or will you call 911, and then force someone to sin in your eyes?
We can bring up the verses about the penalties of making someone sin then.

This tread can continue into the "fine points" of the law, or we can see that the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Blessings
John O

[TrueDay]

Originally posted by John Oscar
Again, you are quoting law in order to keep us favorable with God, and using it to judge others.

Christ did work on the Sabbath. That is what the bible teaches. You can try and explain it away, but the simple exegesis of the passage says that He did was was against the law at the time, which means He had the correct interpretation of the law.

Following His example and His word, it is okay to do what is good on the Sabbath. I professions (in my opinion) that have to work on the Sabbath are Protective services such as police, firefighters, paramedics, health care workers, pharmacists, other technical services such as emergency calls for electricians, plumbers, ect.

They would all be doing good on the Sabbath.

Let me ask you, if your child were choking to death on the Sabbath, would you just shrug and say, "Well, sorry honey, but that is God's will for me to watch you die?", or will you call 911, and then force someone to sin in your eyes?
We can bring up the verses about the penalties of making someone sin then.

This tread can continue into the "fine points" of the law, or we can see that the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Blessings
John O

John did not the Lord say it was lawful to do good on the Sabbath? If my friend's house down the street starts to burn down I'm going to go help fight the fire. That is doing good on the Sabbath.

On the other hand if my friend comes to be and said I would like to buy the 40 acres that I have for sale I would tell him to please come back tomorrow becouse I am spending the day with the Lord.

I take it you have the Laws that the Jews made up with what God gave in the 10 Commandments.

We worship on Sabbath becouse God has come to fellowship with us. God set the Sabbath aside to be with us. Why not set aside the same time to be with the Lord. It is as simple as that.

If your wife tells you that she will be at 7th and Main at 10 AM and would like you to come pick Her up, would you wait and go there at 1 PM?

[John Oscar]

Believe it or not, I think you and I are in agreement about most of this.

I'm probably reacting from many "Sabbath Day" Christians screaming at me throughout the years that I'm going to hell because I'm in a profession that works on the Sabbath.

I'd love to have every weekend off, but people keep getting hurt, sick, and injured on the weekends (more then the weekdays usually), so I have to work, especially since I'm a trainer.

Blessings
John O

[TrueDay]

Originally posted by John Oscar
Believe it or not, I think you and I are in agreement about most of this.

I'm probably reacting from many "Sabbath Day" Christians screaming at me throughout the years that I'm going to hell because I'm in a profession that works on the Sabbath.

I'd love to have every weekend off, but people keep getting hurt, sick, and injured on the weekends (more then the weekdays usually), so I have to work, especially since I'm a trainer.

Blessings
John O

I know a lot of Sabbath keepers that are Doctors or Nurses that have to work on Sabbath from time to time. But really, is helping the sick and injured work? I do not see it that way, I think help others is a gift from God to us so that we can see what He is really like.

[John Oscar]

Well, it's very hard work , both physically and emotionally.
For example, the last three Christmas Eve's that I've worked I've had to work a cardiac arrest in front of entire families. Two out of the three ended up dying (last night's lady is still alive as far as I know). The good part of this is that as a minister, I am able to offer pastoral ministry to the living when we are done, and witness for Christ.
I also look at it this way.
1 24-hour shift= tithes and missions offerings. So in essense, most of the money I earn goes to God's work....

Blessings
John O

[TrueDay]

Originally posted by John Oscar
Well, it's very hard work , both physically and emotionally.
For example, the last three Christmas Eve's that I've worked I've had to work a cardiac arrest in front of entire families. Two out of the three ended up dying (last night's lady is still alive as far as I know). The good part of this is that as a minister, I am able to offer pastoral ministry to the living when we are done, and witness for Christ.
I also look at it this way.
1 24-hour shift= tithes and missions offerings. So in essense, most of the money I earn goes to God's work....

Blessings
John O

Amen Brother, Amen. I was a firefighter and a PM in my younger days so I know what you are talking about.

[Doma]

I have spoken many a time on the separation of spirituals to come when the rapture occurs, for a detailed look at the future after the rapture check out my prophecy page:

http://www.kingdom-gospel.com/prophecy.html

[TrueDay]

Originally posted by Doma
I have spoken many a time on the separation of spirituals to come when the rapture occurs, for a detailed look at the future after the rapture check out my prophecy page:

http://www.kingdom-gospel.com/prophecy.html

This is what is left when the Lord comes to "rapture" us.

Jeremiah 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
Jeremiah 4:24
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
Jeremiah 4:25
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
Jeremiah 4:26
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
Jeremiah 4:27
27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
Jeremiah 4:28
28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

Doma, there is no second chance at salvation. Now is the time to get right with God. The Bible is plan about this. 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5 are very clear about who Christ will come back.

[Doma]

There is no scriptural reason for that to have anything to do with the rapture. While you are in the flesh, you continue have the right to be saved, unless you completed the formulae in Heb 6, then you lost it.

[Little Lamb]

Doma,

We cannot loose our salvation. When we get to Heaven I'm going to say I told you so after we go to Jesus and ask Him about one loosing their salvation, if we care to ask Him, that is.

[TrueDay]

Originally posted by Doma
There is no scriptural reason for that to have anything to do with the rapture. While you are in the flesh, you continue have the right to be saved, unless you completed the formulae in Heb 6, then you lost it.

In reading the Bible Doma, there is no rapture as you are trying to put forth. Read Revelation from chapter 1 to chapter 22 and you will not find it. You will find verses like Revelation 14:12-14 "12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 14:13
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are thedead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Revelation 14:14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle."

If you study the Bible and compare one verse with another verse you will find that the Rapture that is sweeping the world is not the truth. If you would care to check out were it came from start looking in the RC Church.

[TrueDay]

Doma the name of the topic is The Coming Persecution and Whether you believe it are not you WILL be in it. We all will be in it on one side or the other.

So Doma what do you know about the coming persecution or have you closed your eyes to it.

[Eveningstar]

Originally posted by Donny Short
I am not sure when it is going to happen but a Holy War of sorts is on the horizion.

God is going to draw a line in the sand and separate the true Church from the cults. many of these cults are going to call themselves Christian but their fruits will show otherwise. God is going to expose them.

God did a wonderful and mighty thing when he exposed the crime, coverup, corruption, and horror of the catholic church and their many child molesting priests. We know now that the coverup for this went as high as the pope.

The dividing line is going to be the issue of homosexuality. This is what the catholics really hid. These priests were sodomites who preyed on little boys. The homosexual issue is going to become the center point of debate in many denominations.

Churches who support it and denominations who promote it are going to complain about those of us who preach against this act. They will accuse us of being haters, against unity, un-forgiving and such the like.

They are going to turn to the government for help and laws are going to be passed that reach further that the hate crimes act.

The American government is going to approve of homosexual marriage and one by one states are going pass laws allowing sodomites to marry.

In order to keep the peace laws are going to be passed and many preachers are going to be jailed for preaching against this terrible sin.

Those who accept and support sodomy are going to be rejected by God. he is going to cast them aside and refuse to hear them.

While all of this is going a merciful God is still going to try to get our attention. Another plague is going to come upon homosexuals worse than AIDS. There is going to be more terror attacks worse than 9/11. More deaths from things like the flu than we have ever seen.

But we won't listen, like in the past when God sends warnings to America we will respond with arrogance rather than humility.

Ministers are going to be forced to either face prision or preach the truth. A strong persecution is going to come against the Church that lives for Jesus. Some are even going to be killed for their faith. This persecution is going to drive the bride of Christ to her knees in deep prayer. This persecution is going to be the very tool that God uses to find out who belongs to him and who don't. The day is coming in America that to go to Church you will be putting your life on the line.

We had better pray like we have never prayed before. we need to get out of the textbooks and get a hold of the horns of the altar. We need a relationship with God and not just knowledge about God.

For those who trust Jesus and love him always remember he will never leave you. He will keep you and you will be the apple of his eye. Don't worry about what man can do to you, the Lord says for you to remember him and his faithfullness. Look at the saints of old who were thrown in the fire yet never burned. Stay in prayer, and stay in love with Jesus and he will keep you no matter what comes your way.

:rolleyes:

[John Oscar]

Out of curiousity, and because it will help me understand where everyone is coming from, what is everyone's view on the end times?

Are you pre-millinial, post-mill, amill

As far as the rapture, do you believe that:
There is no rapture
Before the triblulation
During the tribulation
After the tribulation

Personally, I'm leaning more toward a-mill in my understanding of the last days. I started off pre-mill, pre trib, but I'm beginning to question it somewhat...
I'm not asking to start a debate. As I said, I'm just more curious then anything else.


Blessings
John O

[TrueDay]

Originally posted by John Oscar
Out of curiousity, and because it will help me understand where everyone is coming from, what is everyone's view on the end times?

Are you pre-millinial, post-mill, amill

As far as the rapture, do you believe that:
There is no rapture
Before the triblulation
During the tribulation
After the tribulation

Personally, I'm leaning more toward a-mill in my understanding of the last days. I started off pre-mill, pre trib, but I'm beginning to question it somewhat...
I'm not asking to start a debate. As I said, I'm just more curious then anything else.


Blessings
John O

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 14:13
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are thedead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Revelation 14:14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle."

To me it is very clear that Jesus will come the 2nd time for us all, after the Plagues. When He come there will be noone left alive.

[John Oscar]

So you believe in no rapture, and have an a-mill belief?

[TrueDay]

Originally posted by John Oscar
So you believe in no rapture, and have an a-mill belief?

I am not sure what a-mill is. This is what I believe.

1 There will be a time of trouble
2 The Plagues will fall
3 Jesus will come, the good will go to heaven, the bad will die with the brightness of his comeing
4 1000 year we will be in heaven, Satan and his angels will be the only ones on earth.
5. after the 1000 years the New Jerusalem will come down with us and the all the Wicked will be raised up
6. Satan will get the Wicked ones to come up around the City to take it
7. God will show the history of the world to everyone and everyone will bow before God to say that He is just.
8. Fire will come down from God out of Heaven and burn up the Wicked, Satan and His Angels.
9. Christ will recreat the earth made new. We will live with Him forever.

[John Oscar]

Okay, fair enough.

[TrueDay]

Originally posted by John Oscar
Out of curiousity, and because it will help me understand where everyone is coming from, what is everyone's view on the end times?

Are you pre-millinial, post-mill, amill

As far as the rapture, do you believe that:
There is no rapture
Before the triblulation
During the tribulation
After the tribulation

Personally, I'm leaning more toward a-mill in my understanding of the last days. I started off pre-mill, pre trib, but I'm beginning to question it somewhat...
I'm not asking to start a debate. As I said, I'm just more curious then anything else.

Can you give me verses for your understanding of the end times?


Blessings
John O

[saved]

Originally posted by TrueDay
I am not sure what a-mill is. This is what I believe.

1 There will be a time of trouble
2 The Plagues will fall
3 Jesus will come, the good will go to heaven, the bad will die with the brightness of his comeing
4 1000 year we will be in heaven, Satan and his angels will be the only ones on earth.
5. after the 1000 years the New Jerusalem will come down with us and the all the Wicked will be raised up
6. Satan will get the Wicked ones to come up around the City to take it
7. God will show the history of the world to everyone and everyone will bow before God to say that He is just.
8. Fire will come down from God out of Heaven and burn up the Wicked, Satan and His Angels.
9. Christ will recreat the earth made new. We will live with Him forever.

Pre trib

1) the falling away will happen and the rapture will take place removing the church.

2) the 7 year tribulation will start with a 3 and 1/2 year of relative peace then the world will be torn apart.

3) at the end the Lord will return with His saints and set up His 1000 year kingdom rule.

4) after that He will judge the lost and the creation will be destroyed He then makes another creation and we who have been saved will be with Him forever.

[TrueDay]

Originally posted by saved
Pre trib

1) the falling away will happen and the rapture will take place removing the church.

2) the 7 year tribulation will start with a 3 and 1/2 year of relative peace then the world will be torn apart.

3) at the end the Lord will return with His saints and set up His 1000 year kingdom rule.

4) after that He will judge the lost and the creation will be destroyed He then makes another creation and we who have been saved will be with Him forever.

Were do they get number 1

[John Oscar]

Amill= Amillennialism, which is the end times theological system which denies any literal 1000 year period, but attributes it to the whole church age.
Proponents of this belief state that the world is heading toward the second coming of Christ, in which He will suddenly return and bring the world into judgment.
There are also variations withing this system, but that is a very quick over view.

Blessings
John O

[Little Lamb]

I am pre-trib.

[saved]

TrueDay,
that comes from the book of Thess and the Rev. when it describes the seven churches. The last one is a false church.

[TrueDay]

Originally posted by saved
TrueDay,
that comes from the book of Thess and the Rev. when it describes the seven churches. The last one is a false church.

I alway thought that the seven churches in Rev. where periods of Church history starting when Christ went back to Heaven. It looks like it works.

[John Oscar]

There are many different ways that people have interpreted Rev 2 and 3. Yours is one of many...
I will say that I see no indication that John was inferring a time line though...

Blessings

John O

[TrueDay]

Originally posted by John Oscar
There are many different ways that people have interpreted Rev 2 and 3. Yours is one of many...
I will say that I see no indication that John was inferring a time line though...

Blessings

John O
The book of Revelation is dealing with time lines and the book as a whole fits together. Look at the first Church and then check what the early Christerns were like.

[Doma]

quote:

Doma,

We cannot loose our salvation. When we get to Heaven I'm going to say I told you so after we go to Jesus and ask Him about one loosing their salvation, if we care to ask Him, that is.

reply:

Who is we? You must qualify that statement. Some can lose their salvation some cannot. I have told everyone I take the balanced approach to this. One side says no one loses salvation the other side says it is easy to lose salvation. I stand with scripture and say salvation can be lost but is VERY difficult:

Yes losing salvation IS possible, but most people go to extremes and make it easy or impossible. It is neither. It is possible but HARD!!

To do so, you must meet each step in the "recipe" found in Hebrwes 6 for the loss of salvation:

Heb 6:
4: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

To lose salvation you must:
1. be enlightened. The Holy Spirit must reveal the truth about the need of salvation and the Way to it.
2. You must taste it. In other words your spirit must be saved. This is a taste, because your other 2 parts are not saved yet (soul and body).
3. You must have the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.


5: And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

continued:

4. You must have read or been taught scripture
5. You must have experienced the Kingdom of God in power


6: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7: For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Also, I have claimed time and time again, ruling with Christ is separate from basic salvation. Many will be saved but will NOT be ruling with Christ.

I discuss this at length here:

http://www.kingdom-gospel.com/kingdom.html

--------------------------

Thus baby christians CANNOT lose salvation, only mature, Bible taught spirit filled christians can lose it. And how many Bible taught spiritually mature christians are there? very few, thus do not worry about it. Can my children disown me and change their name? No. It takes an adult child to go thru the court system to change their name and become legaly separated from their family, the same spiritually.

--------------------------


quote:

In reading the Bible Doma, there is no rapture as you are trying to put forth.

reply:

there is oodles and oodles of scriptural reference for the rapture, discused on the following pages of mine:

http://www.kingdom-gospel.com/rapture.html
http://www.kingdom-gospel.com/prepare.html

---------------------------

quote:

If you study the Bible and compare one verse with another verse you will find that the Rapture that is sweeping the world is not the truth.

reply:

correct. I preach a different rapture. Only half the church gets raptured.

------------------------

quote:

If you would care to check out were it came from start looking in the RC Church.

reply:

I give sources older than the catholic church of the rapture being preached than the RC at my site. That story is hocus pocus, its what I call a diversion tactic.

------------------------

quote:

Doma the name of the topic is The Coming Persecution and Whether you believe it are not you WILL be in it. We all will be in it on one side or the other.

So Doma what do you know about the coming persecution or have you closed your eyes to it.

reply:

As I said before I believe in the coming persecution, it will occur after the rapture. I hope to be one of them raptured.

[TrueDay]

quote:

Doma the name of the topic is The Coming Persecution and Whether you believe it are not you WILL be in it. We all will be in it on one side or the other.

So Doma what do you know about the coming persecution or have you closed your eyes to it.

reply:

As I said before I believe in the coming persecution, it will occur after the rapture. I hope to be one of them raptured.]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

You still have not told us about the coming persecution, what do you think.

[Little Lamb]

TrueDay Doma got off topic because of something I said.

Doma,

We cannot loose our salvation. We depend on Christ and what He did on the cross and that's it! He is faithful even when we are not.

[John Oscar]

Let's not start the OSAS argument again.

:duel:

Blessings
John O

[TrueDay]

Originally posted by John Oscar
Let's not start the OSAS argument again.

:duel:

Blessings
John O

It is a good way to learn the Bible. I seem to find new a wonderful things when I go to find the truth on some of the post. The more I dig the more I find.:boing:

[John Oscar]

Debate is okay, I've just been through this particular one in a few forums, and it can get ugly...

Blessings
John O

[Little Lamb]

John and I have had this discussion before.

[TrueDay]

Originally posted by Little Lamb
John and I have had this discussion before.


LL this is one we do not agree on.:(

[Little Lamb]

Originally posted by TrueDay
LL this is one we do not agree on.:(
What don't we agree on? Eternal Security?

[TrueDay]

Originally posted by Little Lamb
What don't we agree on? Eternal Security?

Our Eternal Security is Jesus Christ.

We still have a Choice at some time a person may take the eazy road and op for the "good life" that this world has.

We have this Choice up till Christ stands up and will say "It is finnished"

Rev. 22:11 "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."

This is where you can say the real OSAS will be.

[Little Lamb]

Ok, yes we do disagree on this. The verse you use proves what I'm saying.

The Lord is the one keeping us saved, not we ourselves.

[Doma]

I discuss the coming persecution on the following 2 pages of mine:

http://www.kingdom-gospel.com/prepare.html

and

http://www.kingdom-gospel.com/two.html

in essence, this is what I beleieve will happen:

Half the church will be raptured. This will cause the salt of the earth, its preserving power, to be gone. Thus the world will escalate to evil and darkness.

The church that is left behind will radiclaly change into 2 opposing ends.

many will repent and be Spirit filled, others will deny the gospel and will merge with all other religions under a new Roman Religion which will persecute the repentant ones.

Many in Rome itself will repent, not all in Catholocism will go to the Babylonian One World religion. And they will be persecuted for it.

I discuss this in detail especially in the 2nd link above.

This newly transformed Roman Religion will gain political power as Rome had in it's past. Many in the world will look to it for power and peace, as it incorporates all faiths. The coming anti-christ will NOT be a part of this spiritual babylon, but will work with her, to his own gain, for power. But will eventually destroy this whore, because he wants all to worship him. But he will empower and work with her to have many christians killed.

--------------------------

As for the OSAS, I was told by someone here, that when we get to heaven they will tell me they told me so. The late Kenneth Hagin, had many visions of Christ. And one of them Jesus told him about mature spirit filled christians losing their salvation. Jesus then showed him Heb 6. He then showed Ken a person who had performed the recipe for this failure, which is extremely difficult to do. Ken also has met a woman who did this. Even had her minister in his church and testify how she had grown in Christ, rejected him and was now lost, unable to repent because she had grieved and lost the Holy Spirit.

I need not stand on such testimony's when Heb 6 is sufficient for me. It specificly shows believers losing salvation, but MATURE SPIRIT FILLED BIBLE TAUGHT SPIRITUALLY GIFTED christians only.

[TrueDay]

Thank-you Doma, now I know where you are coming from.

[TrueDay]

Originally posted by Little Lamb
Ok, yes we do disagree on this. The verse you use proves what I'm saying.

The Lord is the one keeping us saved, not we ourselves.

LL if I made you think that we are the one to keep ourself saved I am sorry. The only one is Christ.

Phil. 4:13 "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me."

As long as Christ is in us then we will do His good plasure. But when we take over then we get into trouble. Paul had the same problem.

[Little Lamb]

Originally posted by TrueDay
LL if I made you think that we are the one to keep ourself saved I am sorry. The only one is Christ.

Phil. 4:13 "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me."

As long as Christ is in us then we will do His good plasure. But when we take over then we get into trouble. Paul had the same problem.
Yes, TrueDay, Paul had the same problem and he's in Heaven today.

I also believe when we die we will go to our eternal destination. You may not agree with this. You may believe we stay in the grave until Ressurrection Day.

[TrueDay]

Originally posted by Little Lamb
Yes, TrueDay, Paul had the same problem and he's in Heaven today.

I also believe when we die we will go to our eternal destination. You may not agree with this. You may believe we stay in the grave until Ressurrection Day.

Your right there LL, if paul and everyone that has died are in Heaven then who is ressurrected when the Lord comes in the air? I know it is not the wicked they all die when he comes.

[Little Lamb]

Originally posted by TrueDay
Your right there LL, if paul and everyone that has died are in Heaven then who is ressurrected when the Lord comes in the air? I know it is not the wicked they all die when he comes.
No, TrueDay it is not the wicked. The way I understand it, is when we die and go to Heaven, we will be spirits. We will get our resurrected bodies on Resurrection Day.

How can I show you in scripture? Hmmm. :idea:

[TrueDay]

Originally posted by Little Lamb
No, TrueDay it is not the wicked. The way I understand it, is when we die and go to Heaven, we will be spirits. We will get our resurrected bodies on Resurrection Day.

How can I show you in scripture? Hmmm. :idea:

Then what about Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecclesiastes 9:6
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

[Little Lamb]

Originally posted by TrueDay
Then what about Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecclesiastes 9:6
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
No, that scripture doesn't say what I'm saying.

That portion of scripture, to me, says once we're dead that's it. Nothing. No Heaven, no Hell.

[TrueDay]

Originally posted by Little Lamb
No, that scripture doesn't say what I'm saying.

That portion of scripture, to me, says once we're dead that's it. Nothing. No Heaven, no Hell.

will now you are on the right track.

Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
Joh 11:21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
Joh 11:22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.
Joh 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?


Gen. 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Dust + breath of God (or breath of life) = living soul

Living soul - Breath of life = Dust

[Little Lamb]

TrueDay,

Are you saying that you believe that after we die, that's it? No Heaven, no Hell? Nothing? No afterlife?

[John Oscar]

True day,

Am I to understand that you believe in soul sleep, or you are saying our spirit lives on while our body's sleep, awaiting the rapture?

Blessings
John O

[TrueDay]

Originally posted by John Oscar
True day,

Am I to understand that you believe in soul sleep, or you are saying our spirit lives on while our body's sleep, awaiting the rapture?

Blessings
John O

1. Truth = Gen. 2:7 "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed unto his nostrils the breath of life; and man become a living soul."

Dust + Breath of God = living soul.

2. Truth = Job 34:14 If he set his heart upon himself, If he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; 15 All flesh shall perish together, And man shall turn again unto dust.

Living soul - Breath of God = Dust

3. Truth = Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

The dead have no memory, no thought they are nowhere but in the grave.

4. Truth = 1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; 17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Christ will give back the Breath of Life and the dead will live for ever more. Note that we all go to Heaven together.

[Eveningstar]

D&C 84:96-102
For I, the Almighty, have laid my hands upon the nations, to scourge them for their wickedness.
And plagues shall go forth, and they shall not be taken from the earth until I have completed my work, which shall be cut short in righteousness—
Until all shall know me, who remain, even from the least unto the greatest, and shall be filled with the knowledge of the Lord, and shall see eye to eye, and shall lift up their voice, and with the voice together sing this new song, saying:

"The Lord hath brought again Zion;
The Lord hath redeemed his people, Israel,
According to the election of grace,
Which was brought to pass by the faith
And covenant of their fathers.
The Lord hath redeemed his people;
And Satan is bound and time is no longer.
The Lord hath gathered all things in one.
The Lord hath brought down Zion from above.
The Lord hath brought up Zion from beneath.
The earth hath travailed and brought forth her strength;
And truth is established in her bowels;
And the heavens have smiled upon her;
And she is clothed with the glory of her God;
For he stands in the midst of his people.
Glory, and honor, and power, and might,
Be ascribed to our God; for he is full of mercy,
Justice, grace and truth, and peace,
Forever and ever, Amen."

[John Oscar]

So does that mean, yes, you do believe in soul sleep?

Blessings
John O

[TrueDay]

Originally posted by John Oscar
So does that mean, yes, you do believe in soul sleep?

Blessings
John O

I'm with you on this one John, I'm trying to under stand what Doma has to say.:shrug:


John I woudl like you to know that I get upset at you at times, But I still think of you as a brother, so please bear with me.

[Little Lamb]

TrueDay,

Do you believe in soul sleep?

[TrueDay]

Originally posted by Little Lamb
TrueDay,

Do you believe in soul sleep?

That is what the Bible tells us.



:boing:

[Little Lamb]

Thank you, TrueDay, I was wondering how you believed. We disagree on this. But then again, we don't disagree on everything, nor do we agree on everything.

[TrueDay]

Originally posted by Little Lamb
Thank you, TrueDay, I was wondering how you believed. We disagree on this. But then again, we don't disagree on everything, nor do we agree on everything.

The more you and I look at Christ the closer we come to Him. The closer we come to Christ the more you and I will agree. ALL truth is in Jesus.

[Little Lamb]

Originally posted by TrueDay
The more you and I look at Christ the closer we come to Him. The closer we come to Christ the more you and I will agree. ALL truth is in Jesus.
We do agree that all truth is in Jesus. Jesus is the truth.
John 14:6 -
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

[TrueDay]

Originally posted by Little Lamb
We do agree that all truth is in Jesus. Jesus is the truth.
John 14:6 -
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Amen LL

[Doma]

No, I don't believe in soul sleep. part of the problem, and the only part I am willing to discuss, until the 4 webpages of evidnces I gave on the heaven/hell where do I go when I die thread, is refuted.

Christians have a very big problem understanding soul vs spirit. A soul can die, and must be saved separately and progresively from the instant salvation of the spirit.

This confusion adds to the soul sleep error.

When you die you (which is a spirit, has a soul and lives in a body) goes to heaven or hell. But the soul goes broken (similar to the state of our spirit before we are saved) to whatever state, unless we get the soul saved.

[John Oscar]

Okay.... How do you get the soul saved?

[John Oscar]

True day,

I don't get mad at you. I do get a little upset when someone questions my integrity, as it is something that I hold near and dear to me.
Please don't consider my post regarding that as an attack. I didn't mean it as such; it was more of a correction.

Love and blessings
John O

[Doma]

I recommend the book "salvation of the Soul" by Watchman nee, or here is a free website by me:

http://www.kingdom-gospel.com/soul.html

The Salvation of the Soul

Man is a triune being. We were made in the image of God. God is triune and so is man. Angels and demons are spirits, I do not believe they have souls, but am unsure. Animals are dualistic, they are soul and body. Plants have body only. To see more about the Triune God:

http://www.kingdom-gospel.com/jesus.html

The bible tells us we are triune:

1 Thess 5: MKJV
23 ¶ And may the God of peace Himself sanctify you, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blamelessly at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The word "soul" in the greek is "psuche", this is where we get the english word psychic. It is often translated: heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

The word "spirit" in the greek is "pneuma", this is where we get pneumatic tool (a tool powered by air). It is often translated: ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind.

When Adam sinned, he died spiritually. God had told Adam:

Gen 2: MKJV
17 but you shall not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. For in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

When Adam at from the tree, did he die physically (in the body)? No. Did his soul die? No, in fact his soul increased:

Gen 3: MKJV
22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man has become as one of Us, to know good and evil...

Therefore, Adam died spiritually. God communicates thru the spirit, and when Adam died spiritually, God didn't "see" him.

Prov 20 KJ21
27 The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of his being.

Gen 3: MKJV
9 ¶ And the LORD God called to Adam and said to him, Where are you?

Because Adam sinned, all mankind fell into sin with Adam:

Rom 5: LITV
12 Because of this, even as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death passed to all men, inasmuch as all sinned.

1 Cor 15: YLTV
15:22 for even as in Adam all die...

Now every person is born into sin, spiritually dead:

Psalm 51: MKJV
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Psalm 58: MKJV
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from the womb...

Eph 2: MKJV
3 among whom we also ... were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

When a person accepts Jesus, and the work He has done for them, thru His death, burial, and resurrection, they become spiritually saved. They gain eternal life and heaven. When this occurs, the Holy Spirit seals them:

Eph 1: NKJV
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

This salvation is not by any work of the believer, it is a gift of God, thru Jesus. We need only to accept it.

Eph 2: LITV
8 For by grace you are saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God;
9 not of works, that not anyone should boast;

Titus 3: MKJV
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Once your spirit is saved, you can still see that your body has yet to be transformed into a new indestructible body. This I what I call the salvation of the body. This occurs at the rapture:

1 Cor 15: MKJV
35 But someone will say, How are the dead raised up, and with what body do they come?
36 Foolish one! What you sow is not made alive unless it dies.
37 And what you sow, you do not sow the body that is going to be, but a bare grain (perhaps of wheat or of some of the rest).
38 And God gives it a body as it has pleased Him, and to each of the seeds its own body.
40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. But the glory of the heavenly is truly different, and that of the earthly different;
42 So also the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption;
43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1 John 3:2 MKJV
Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be. But we know that when He shall be revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

We can also see that our soul still is caught in sin after we are saved. The Bible tells us, that when we are saved, our sin nature is unemployed:

Rom 6: ALT
6 knowing this, that our former person was crucified together [with Him], so that the body of sin shall be made useless [or, pass away], [so that] we [are] no longer to be serving as a slave to sin.

Rom 6: LITV
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be nullified, so that we no longer serve sin.

The work of the Cross has stopped sin in our spirit, but it is not eliminated from our being. Although, we are no longer slaves to sin:

Rom 6: MKJV
17 ... you were the slaves of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
18 Then being made free from sin, you became the slaves of righteousness.
19 ... for as you have yielded your members as slaves to uncleanness, and to lawless act unto lawless act, even so now yield your members as slaves to righteousness unto holiness.

Your spirit is no longer in bondage to sin, you now have a choice. Choice is your free will, that part which is in your soul. After being saved, you still can choose sin, and can still feels it's temptation. This is all in the soul.

But there is good news. You can save your soul !

Heb 10: NKJV
39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

Philp 2:12 NKJV
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

James 1:21 MKJV
Therefore putting aside all filthiness and overflowing of evil, receive in meekness the implanted Word, which is able to save your souls.

As you can see, scripture tells the christian, that his soul can be saved. Since this is written to christians, we know they are already spiritually saved. The salvation of the soul is progressive. It takes work, read Phil 2:12 again. Obviously, Philippians 2:12 is not discussing the salvation of the spirit, because we see in scripture that is not by works.

We can also see what it is, that saves the soul in James 1:21. It is by receiving with meekness the implanted word. The Bible say's faith comes by hearing the Word of God:

Rom 10: NKJV
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

In the very same chapter, it say's God's Word is in your heart and in your mouth:

Rom 10: MKJV
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, even in your mouth and in your heart"; that is, the word of faith which we proclaim;

How did it get there? The Word of God isn't just written scriptures in a book, but the scriptures become the Word of God in the person. Jesus is called the word of God:

John 1:
1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Rev 19: MKJV
11 And I saw Heaven opened. And behold, a white horse! And He sitting on him was called Faithful and True. And in righteousness He judges and makes war.
13 ... and His name is called The Word of God.

I fully believe Jesus is the Word of God because He is God, and that the Father created the Universe thru Christ. But I also believe Jesus is the Word of God, because He submitted to the Father in all things.

When we are saved, the Holy Spirit enters us. This enables us to understand scripture:

1 Cor 2: MKJV
10 But God has revealed them to us by His Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, yea, the deep things of God.
12 But we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit from God, so that we might know the things that are freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

The Holy Spirit opens our eyes to scripture, but more than that, because Jesus is the Word of God, and because He lives in the believer, the Word of God is found in us.

Often times, the believer will be sparked with life and truth by hearing or reading scripture, or when a minister or fellow believer speaks something spiritual. This is the implanted Word operating in the believer from James 1:21

James 1:21 MKJV
Therefore putting aside all filthiness and overflowing of evil, receive in meekness the implanted Word, which is able to save your souls.

The work of Philp 2:12 is doing what James says in 1:21, that we need to receive with meekness the engrafted Word. Receiving with meekness, is cooperating with the work of God in your life.

Phil 1: MKJV
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ,

God began the work in you by saving your spirit. He then implanted His Word into you to guide you to the salvation of your soul. But we must cooperate in this, "receive in meekness" & "work out your own salvation".

continued...

[Doma]

Receiving the Word and work of God will renew your soul. It will cleanse it:

Eph 5: MKJV
25 ... as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for it,
26 that He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word,

2 Cor 4: MKJV
16 For this cause we do not faint; but though our outward man perishes, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day.

When God tries to correct us, guide our actions, sometimes we tend to "faint", think we won't make it. But 2 Cor 4:16, tells us not to, even when we see our body isn't saved yet. But our inward man, our soul, is being renewed every day. This is not our spirit, because our spirit is completely saved. Jesus and the cross have done their work. Now we need to let that work renew our soul.

Rom 12: NKJV
2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

We must not follow after the world, but renew our mind, which is part of our soul, so that we can know and do God's will.

Titus 3:5: Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

This verse shows us 2 parts of salvation. First the regeneration of our spirit, thus we know it is not renewed day by day, because it is regenerated. Then, God works in us by renewing thru the Holy Spirit. The regeneration is a COMPLETED work, the renewing is a CONTINUED work.

The Old Testament prophesied of this new covenant:

Ezek 36: MKJV
25 ¶ And I will sprinkle clean waters on you, and you shall be clean. I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from your idols.
26 And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. And I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you shall keep My judgments and do them .

Getting your soul saved, is not going to be easy on the soul. The soul is the mind, the will, and the emotions. The soul will rise up and say, "I want...", but we know in our spirit what is selfish and what is sin. But God grants us the power to overcome, we must not faint.

Gal 6: MKJV
9 But we should not lose heart in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not faint.

It won't be too difficult because we have the Holy Spirit:

Math 11: MKJV
29 Take My yoke on you and learn of Me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, and you shall find rest to your souls.
30 For My yoke is easy, and My burden is light.

Nonetheless, it is a work to be done. Jesus spoke about saving the soul:

Math 16: NKJV
25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.
26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?

The word life in 25 is "psuche" in the greek which better translates as soul, as in verse 26. Look at this verse:

Luke 9: MKJV
23 And He said to all, If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow Me.

While the word "himself" is not the same word "psuche". The same thought applies here, we must deny our soul.

Some may say, "Oh, my salvation is guaranteed. I don't need to deny myself." True, your spirit will be saved and go to heaven, but unless you get your soul saved before arriving there, God will break your soul. so Jesus gives us this choice:

Math 21: MKJV
44 And he who falls on this Stone shall be broken, but on whomever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

You have a choice, to either willing break your own soul, or let Christ smash it to tiny bits. There will come a strong judgment of fire upon the unfaithful believer. Not a fire into hell, but they shall be saved:

1 Cor 3: LITV
15 If the work of anyone shall be consumed, he shall suffer loss; but he will be saved, but so as through fire.

[SIS]

Finally
Doma, I'm new-that was a long thread to get through. I thought it was on persecution of True Christians.

I know a man that converted over seas because he saw Christians being slaughtered by #'s for their faith and nothing more than their faith.

I believe there will be great persecutions on the Jews and Christians before the tribulation. I can't even begin to predict a time for the rapture; unless I dare claim to know something that Our LORD did not know.

"MATURE SPIRIT FILLED BIBLE TAUGHT SPIRITUALLY GIFTED christians only".

By the recipe that you wrote-I quess I lost The LORD's salvation and there exists no hope for me. Since I was saved in the 70's in a small Baptist church that taught me scripture and gave me a solid foundation; then baptized in The Holy Spirit in the early 90's and was given several gifts that I never had before, or could not explain-since I was indoctrinated Baptist. I am not apostate! I don't attend church building meetings- sometimes I get to pray with good folks that come out to where I live and I love that.

I remember the father of my sons in the old Baptist church. He "got Saved", then claimed to be called to the mission field; then refused to go. The night before we left the state, an evangalist came in and preched on Jonah. The next day we headed out of the city. Out of a blue sky came a down fall of rain that caused all cars to pull over. We waited as he became more and more aggravated. He finally pounded his fists on the steering wheel and yelled out loud to GOD, "I will not become a missionary"! Immediantly the rain stopped.

We moved. He went to college and became an atheist. He wanted to be a doctor and he did. He left us (children and I) in poverty to pursue his new life.

Nonetheless, did I lose my salvation? I don't believe that I did, but very narrow is the way.... SIS




:rolleyes:

[Doma]

I never claimed you lost your salvation. Were you taught the Meat of God's word? I doubt you even were taught the milk.

Lets see if you were.

This is milk, the Bible says it is, name the 6 Foundational Principles of Christ, without looking in scripture. The King James calls them this:

1: first principles of the oracles of God
2: principles of the doctrine of Christ
3: foundation

So can you name them?

I didn't think so.

Do you know the difference between the soul and the spirit?

How are each saved?

Since you cannot answer these questions, you never lost your salvation.

It is possible to lose salvation, but like I keep preaching, it is EXTREMELY difficult to do so.

You just back slid was all.

I welcome you back to the Fold.

[SIS]

1: first principles of the oracles of God
2: principles of the doctrine of Christ
3: foundation

So can you name them?

I didn't think so.

Do you know the difference between the soul and the spirit?

How are each saved?

Since you cannot answer these questions, you never lost your salvation.

ahh duh-let me try to remember here

1. Confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus is LORD and you will be saved......
2. Only by HIS pure, sinless Blood that He spilled on the cross.....
3. because we, all of us, are sinners---since Adam fell......
4. Adam lost his spiritual life therefore we are void of spiritual life until we are born again......
5. GOD is holy and Jesus sacrificed His Blood to bridge the gap because God loves us......
6. I have a feeling I'm far off from what your asking??????

Going on to soul and spirit ...

Spirit can simply mean eternal life, or in the Tanak it refers to our emotions.

Soul is undefined because it is a not scientically proven inter body part yet, but some confuse it with mind; which it is not. Descarte conducted a very long experiment to prove that every man has a soul and that there is a GOD. This is called Dualism. SIS :doh: :confused:

[Doma]

see, you failed. This means you never lost your salvation...

http://www.kingdom-gospel.com/foundation.html

Foundational Principles of Christ - Part 1

If the following question were to be asked in every church in America, I would venture to say that more than 75% would not be able to answer it. How about you? The question is:
What are the 6 Foundational Principles of Christ mentioned in the Bible?
These are the terms the Bible (KJV) calls them:
1: first principles of the oracles of God
2: principles of the doctrine of Christ
3: foundation
Here is the scripture it is found in:

Heb 5:
12: For when for the time you ought to be teachers, you have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13: For every one that uses milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14: But strong meat belongs to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Heb 6:
1: Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2: Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Lets enumerate them:

1: repentance from dead works
2: faith toward God
3: doctrine of baptisms (plural)
4: laying on of hands
5: resurrection of the dead
6: eternal judgment

------------------------------

http://www.kingdom-gospel.com/soul.html

The Salvation of the Soul

Man is a triune being. We were made in the image of God. God is triune and so is man. Angels and demons are spirits, I do not believe they have souls, but am unsure. Animals are dualistic, they are soul and body. Plants have body only.

The bible tells us we are triune:

1 Thess 5: MKJV
23 ¶ And may the God of peace Himself sanctify you, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blamelessly at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The word "soul" in the greek is "psuche", this is where we get the english word psychic. It is often translated: heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

The word "spirit" in the greek is "pneuma", this is where we get pneumatic tool (a tool powered by air). It is often translated: ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind.

When Adam sinned, he died spiritually. God had told Adam:

Gen 2: MKJV
17 but you shall not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. For in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

When Adam at from the tree, did he die physically (in the body)? No. Did his soul die? No, in fact his soul increased:

Gen 3: MKJV
22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man has become as one of Us, to know good and evil...

Therefore, Adam died spiritually. God communicates thru the spirit, and when Adam died spiritually, God didn't "see" him.

Prov 20 KJ21
27 The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of his being.

Gen 3: MKJV
9 ¶ And the LORD God called to Adam and said to him, Where are you?

Because Adam sinned, all mankind fell into sin with Adam:

Rom 5: LITV
12 Because of this, even as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death passed to all men, inasmuch as all sinned.

1 Cor 15: YLTV
15:22 for even as in Adam all die...

Now every person is born into sin, spiritually dead:

Psalm 51: MKJV
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Psalm 58: MKJV
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from the womb...

Eph 2: MKJV
3 among whom we also ... were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

When a person accepts Jesus, and the work He has done for them, thru His death, burial, and resurrection, they become spiritually saved. They gain eternal life and heaven. When this occurs, the Holy Spirit seals them:

Eph 1: NKJV
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

This salvation is not by any work of the believer, it is a gift of God, thru Jesus. We need only to accept it.

Eph 2: LITV
8 For by grace you are saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God;
9 not of works, that not anyone should boast;

Titus 3: MKJV
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Once your spirit is saved, you can still see that your body has yet to be transformed into a new indestructible body. This I what I call the salvation of the body. This occurs at the rapture:

1 Cor 15: MKJV
35 But someone will say, How are the dead raised up, and with what body do they come?
36 Foolish one! What you sow is not made alive unless it dies.
37 And what you sow, you do not sow the body that is going to be, but a bare grain (perhaps of wheat or of some of the rest).
38 And God gives it a body as it has pleased Him, and to each of the seeds its own body.
40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. But the glory of the heavenly is truly different, and that of the earthly different;
42 So also the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption;
43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1 John 3:2 MKJV
Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be. But we know that when He shall be revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

We can also see that our soul still is caught in sin after we are saved. The Bible tells us, that when we are saved, our sin nature is unemployed:

Rom 6: ALT
6 knowing this, that our former person was crucified together [with Him], so that the body of sin shall be made useless [or, pass away], [so that] we [are] no longer to be serving as a slave to sin.

Rom 6: LITV
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be nullified, so that we no longer serve sin.

The work of the Cross has stopped sin in our spirit, but it is not eliminated from our being. Although, we are no longer slaves to sin:

Rom 6: MKJV
17 ... you were the slaves of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
18 Then being made free from sin, you became the slaves of righteousness.
19 ... for as you have yielded your members as slaves to uncleanness, and to lawless act unto lawless act, even so now yield your members as slaves to righteousness unto holiness.

[Doma]

Your spirit is no longer in bondage to sin, you now have a choice. Choice is your free will, that part which is in your soul. After being saved, you still can choose sin, and can still feels it's temptation. This is all in the soul.

But there is good news. You can save your soul !

Heb 10: NKJV
39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

Philp 2:12 NKJV
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

James 1:21 MKJV
Therefore putting aside all filthiness and overflowing of evil, receive in meekness the implanted Word, which is able to save your souls.

As you can see, scripture tells the christian, that his soul can be saved. Since this is written to christians, we know they are already spiritually saved. The salvation of the soul is progressive. It takes work, read Phil 2:12 again. Obviously, Philippians 2:12 is not discussing the salvation of the spirit, because we see in scripture that is not by works.

We can also see what it is, that saves the soul in James 1:21. It is by receiving with meekness the implanted word. The Bible say's faith comes by hearing the Word of God:

Rom 10: NKJV
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

In the very same chapter, it say's God's Word is in your heart and in your mouth:

Rom 10: MKJV
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, even in your mouth and in your heart"; that is, the word of faith which we proclaim;

How did it get there? The Word of God isn't just written scriptures in a book, but the scriptures become the Word of God in the person. Jesus is called the word of God:

John 1:
1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Rev 19: MKJV
11 And I saw Heaven opened. And behold, a white horse! And He sitting on him was called Faithful and True. And in righteousness He judges and makes war.
13 ... and His name is called The Word of God.

I fully believe Jesus is the Word of God because He is God, and that the Father created the Universe thru Christ. But I also believe Jesus is the Word of God, because He submitted to the Father in all things.

When we are saved, the Holy Spirit enters us. This enables us to understand scripture:

1 Cor 2: MKJV
10 But God has revealed them to us by His Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, yea, the deep things of God.
12 But we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit from God, so that we might know the things that are freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

The Holy Spirit opens our eyes to scripture, but more than that, because Jesus is the Word of God, and because He lives in the believer, the Word of God is found in us.

Often times, the believer will be sparked with life and truth by hearing or reading scripture, or when a minister or fellow believer speaks something spiritual. This is the implanted Word operating in the believer from James 1:21

James 1:21 MKJV
Therefore putting aside all filthiness and overflowing of evil, receive in meekness the implanted Word, which is able to save your souls.

The work of Philp 2:12 is doing what James says in 1:21, that we need to receive with meekness the engrafted Word. Receiving with meekness, is cooperating with the work of God in your life.

Phil 1: MKJV
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ,

God began the work in you by saving your spirit. He then implanted His Word into you to guide you to the salvation of your soul. But we must cooperate in this, "receive in meekness" & "work out your own salvation".

Receiving the Word and work of God will renew your soul. It will cleanse it:

Eph 5: MKJV
25 ... as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for it,
26 that He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word,

2 Cor 4: MKJV
16 For this cause we do not faint; but though our outward man perishes, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day.

When God tries to correct us, guide our actions, sometimes we tend to "faint", think we won't make it. But 2 Cor 4:16, tells us not to, even when we see our body isn't saved yet. But our inward man, our soul, is being renewed every day. This is not our spirit, because our spirit is completely saved. Jesus and the cross have done their work. Now we need to let that work renew our soul.

Rom 12: NKJV
2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

We must not follow after the world, but renew our mind, which is part of our soul, so that we can know and do God's will.

Titus 3:5: Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

This verse shows us 2 parts of salvation. First the regeneration of our spirit, thus we know it is not renewed day by day, because it is regenerated. Then, God works in us by renewing thru the Holy Spirit. The regeneration is a COMPLETED work, the renewing is a CONTINUED work.

The Old Testament prophesied of this new covenant:

Ezek 36: MKJV
25 ¶ And I will sprinkle clean waters on you, and you shall be clean. I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from your idols.
26 And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. And I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you shall keep My judgments and do them .

Getting your soul saved, is not going to be easy on the soul. The soul is the mind, the will, and the emotions. The soul will rise up and say, "I want...", but we know in our spirit what is selfish and what is sin. But God grants us the power to overcome, we must not faint.

Gal 6: MKJV
9 But we should not lose heart in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not faint.

It won't be too difficult because we have the Holy Spirit:

Math 11: MKJV
29 Take My yoke on you and learn of Me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, and you shall find rest to your souls.
30 For My yoke is easy, and My burden is light.

Nonetheless, it is a work to be done. Jesus spoke about saving the soul:

Math 16: NKJV
25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.
26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?

The word life in 25 is "psuche" in the greek which better translates as soul, as in verse 26. Look at this verse:

Luke 9: MKJV
23 And He said to all, If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow Me.

While the word "himself" is not the same word "psuche". The same thought applies here, we must deny our soul.

Some may say, "Oh, my salvation is guaranteed. I don't need to deny myself." True, your spirit will be saved and go to heaven, but unless you get your soul saved before arriving there, God will break your soul. so Jesus gives us this choice:

Math 21: MKJV
44 And he who falls on this Stone shall be broken, but on whomever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

You have a choice, to either willing break your own soul, or let Christ smash it to tiny bits. There will come a strong judgment of fire upon the unfaithful believer. Not a fire into hell, but they shall be saved:

1 Cor 3: LITV
15 If the work of anyone shall be consumed, he shall suffer loss; but he will be saved, but so as through fire.