Is being right important?

[me again]

Can of worms:Posted by Redfog:
Is it important to be right on an issue? Will being right save us? Is it wrong (sin) to have wrong theology? What about two diametrical views both supported by the Bible? Is being right important to God?

Are issues such as homosexuals in the church, adornment, women pastors, trinity doctrine, abortion, etc, important in the overall scheme of things?Interesting reply:Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. (1 Cor 1:10)Anyone can read Scripture, but how do you interpret it? What does this passage say to you? Is it possible for every church member to agree on everything?

Just how important is it to be right? :think:

[st_michael]

me again,

What a good topic for this forum!

I wonder! Is being right good? Is believing in Jesus going to help save you? I believe YES! --- However some will say NO!

Will a correct belief help save you?

I answer your question like this:

Believing is important... Believing you are right is important. Beleiving in the correct belief is more important...

It is for you to find out what is correct. God has given you a lifetime to find this answer out...

Finding out what the correct thing to believe is the hard part... I know people who believe the Bible is the Word of God because their Mother told them so! I would say, the conclusion is correct even though the reasons are on shakey ground!

I believe the Holy Scripture is God's Written word because My Church tells me it is. To some, that is Shakey Ground! However they would conclude I was still correct in my statement.

Being Correct is important!... the means to correct understanding is the center of most differences and debates...

[itsjustdave1988]

A visiting priest said something during his homily last week that I think shocked many in the parish, but I also think needed saying, cuz it is true:

Orthodoxy will not save you.

Catholics like to defend orthodoxy, because of the dangerous effects of straying from orthodoxy. However, this priest included in his connotation of orthodoxy, abstaining from meat of Fridays, going to Mass on Holy Days, colors of the vestments during Advent, etc. etc. His point was that it is more important that we repent and accept the grace we are given and love God and one another in both WORD and DEED, CONSTANTLY, than to conform to ancient doctrines, traditions, customs and practices. Orthodoxy is a means to becoming more Christ-like, not the end itself.

Although I believe heterodoxy can be dangerous (e.g., David Koresh's version of Adventism), I don't believe heterodoxy is always damnable.

Heresy, schism, and apostacy are always a sin--always. However, in the OT, God seems to give a different penalty for sins of ignorance versus sins of defiance. I don't suppose God has changed his position on that.

Let me sum up by sharing my favorite Protestant quote:

"It is time that Christians were judged more by their likeness to Christ than their notions of Christ."
-- Lucretia Mott (1793-1880)

[Berean Todd]

Personally I ascribe to the theory of "unity in the majors, liberty on the minors, and in all things love". If it's what I consider a major issue (Christ's deity, Salvation by faith alone, the nature of God including the trinity, the innerancy of scripture, man's fallen state among a few others), then on those issues I am not willing to compromise. I hold to the views of orthodox historic Christianity on them, and to me you can't deny say, the deity of Christ, and still have salvation. So on those issues I will argue vigorously.

On the minors (anything else, for example tongues, Calvinism/Armenianism, women as preachers, tithing as required or not, etc, etc), then those are going to be what I consider minor issues. I might not join a church that disagrees with me on some of them, because I want somewhere i feel comfortable, but ultimately I'm not going to let them divide the Body of Christ on my behalf, and I'm not going to argue vigorously on the issue.

And whether something bears debating or not, all things should be done with love as the reason. Do all in love.

[North]

Good topic Me Again.

Frankly, for all the talk of simply reading scripture and coming to a conclusion about truth, this is not possible. Witness the thousands of Protestant denominations. Witness even within the Roman Catholic Church the differing opinions on topics such as Immaculate conception, etc (not now but around the time of the reformation and before). Wintess differing views between Augustine & Thomas (I am reading a good book on the history of the reformation by Jaroslav Pelkin - a Lutheran).

Many read scripture and believe the holy spirit is guiding them to truth. If you ask Copeland & Hinn they will likely answer that this is the case and yet we question whether they are actually scriptural.

This is where the concept of the 'pale of orthodoxy' comes into play. If I read a scriptrue in the bible I should compare my interpretation with what the orthodox understanding of that passage has been & in light of history of biblical times, culture, systematic theology says, etc. If I am way off then I may well wrong. We always should test doctrine in light of scripture.

As Berean Todd points out there are certain in-house debates such as Calvinism vs Arminianism, infant Baptism, etc which are still within the pale of orthodoxy.

Agreement is nearly impossible and this is why someone will read a passage and then go off and start their own denomination. A Southern Baptist is unlikely to accept a Church of Christ theologian's view of Baptism, neither of them a Lutherans view of infant Baptism. Yet all are Christians.

North

[Little Lamb]

I believe we can know what the truth is if we desire to know what it is.

North said:
Frankly, for all the talk of simply reading scripture and coming to a conclusion about truth, this is not possible.
I disagree. Big surprise there. And that's why I think we have a lot of religions proclaiming to know the truth when in actuality, they don't. People need to seek for truth and desire to have it.

That doesn't mean everybody will agree with you, since they think they have the truth also and it doesn't agree with your truth. The truth is out there.

[st_michael]

As I stated before ...

Believing in the Correct thing is the most important job for us in our life time...

That being said... If you are breathing... than you still need to learn and grow to learn the correct thing... don't close yourself off of learning... God is endless and his desire for us is to come to a full knowledge of him... and BOY! we have a lot to learn!

If you open the door to your heart for Jesus... let him burn in you to learn all things about him... Continue to grow and learn... you might find out what you first thought was truth is not or maybe you will fortify your faith with solid reasons!

[Little Lamb]

Well said Michael! :up:

[North]

Originally posted by Little Lamb
I believe we can know what the truth is if we desire to know what it is.

North said:

I disagree. Big surprise there. And that's why I think we have a lot of religions proclaiming to know the truth when in actuality, they don't. People need to seek for truth and desire to have it.

That doesn't mean everybody will agree with you, since they think they have the truth also and it doesn't agree with your truth. The truth is out there.

Actually, we do more or less agree. We may not discover 'the truth' until the second coming and certainly it is out there as an objective reality.

Calvinism and Arminianism cannot both be true at the same time. If it were merely a matter of reading scripture and discerning truth there would be no debate. Yet, Godly men have struggled with this very topic and likely will until we come face to face with Jesus. No amount of seeking and desiring to find it has resulted in a perfect answer. At the point of the second coming He will settle it. It may be Calvinism, Amrinianism, Open Theism or some explanation that we never imagined. Truth is out there but not always discernible by well meaning and intellectually deficient (in comparison to God) human beings.

North

[Little Lamb]

We're getting off topic. me again didn't ask about truth, he asked about being right.

[North]

Just responding to your post about truth.

North :)

[Little Lamb]

North,

In answer to your post each one of us has to decide what to believe in. I know I have the truth. Just how much do I have? I believe I have it all, but may find out I only had a portion of it correct. I better start praying for the Lord to teach me more.

[Little Lamb]

Originally posted by North
Just responding to your post about truth.

North :)
That's fine. I get off topic quite often. Everybody else here can too. Did you see my last post to you? It should be right above this one.

[me again]

Getting off topic isn't a bad thing. With the way these forums work, we'll eventually come back to the original topic, either in this thread or in another thread on another day. These forums are like a big never-ending circle and nobody knows when it started and it never seems to end. :me::up:

[kevingaily]

This is an excellent topic. I only have one thing to add to the posts. That is, I thank God that it is he who saves us and not we ourselves. We wrestle over so many issues but thankfully what really matters is that Christ washes us. Sure we want to be "right" in our doctrine. We all agree on that. However, what is crucial is that we are the called according to his purposes! Not that I'm a limited attonement guy per se, but I know that if I cry out to Jesus Christ to save me and have a repentant heart that is all it takes!

I was listening to a Voice of the Martyrs program where a small house church in the far east only had the book of acts. That's it! Yet they were on fire for Jesus Christ, and were as faithful as they could be with what they knew. Now, it's fairly certain that with only Acts, they had some serious doctrinal issues and ignorances. Yet I believe they had a genuine relationship with the Savior.

So to answer Me again's question about how important is it to be right, I'd answer very important, but not always crucial. :)

[Eurogal]

Kevin... There is a tv/radio program of The Voice of the Mayrters?

I only know about a flyer or pamphlet I had in hand years ago. I was a very faithful supporter of Richard Wurmbrand.

Eurogal

[Eurogal]

Jehova Jira Todd…. :hi:

Jehova Jira, My provider
and his Grace is suffience for me, for ME!
I love that chorus song. My heart sings it often.

You said to ES in another topic thread recently : “But I can see all ready that I'm shouting into the wind, you are too spiritually blind to see the truth. I pray that one day your eyes will be opened to the truth of God's Word.” Your emphasis was on his BOM promotionals.

That really is what goes on in the unspoken part of our minds personally of all religious groups online when they are thinking about other religious groups they are interacting with online. :crackup:

Each church group has it’s own “enemy” profile made up in their mind of the other group.
Most all Protestant down the RCC’s,
RCC’s down the sects or cults and all the protestants,
the evangelicals slander the radical independent movements,
mainstream christianity downs lots of unorthodoxy in charismatics/pentecostals,
and all are out to drown the SDA’s, Mormons and JW’s if given a chance. :nuts: :(

The human heart is very deceitful…. or to put it in modern lingo we have inherent tendencies to self-hypnotise ourselves right into turning wrong into believing it is right. We are capable of searing our own conscience over a period of time using compromises in our virtures. I find it ludicrous to put all the blame of wrong thinking on “a devil made me do it” imaginary guilt-scapegoat.

The question is how much do we carry on responsibility for believing a lie of doctrine or false teaching, or how much of being deceived (when the case so is) has taken place in us against our will?

eurogal

[Eurogal]

Kevin in a number upwards in this thread gave us Paul’s admonition : "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.”

In defragmentated Christianity we are sinning against this holy expectation.

It would be so wonderful to live in the answer to the prayer of Jesus to the Father as we have it in print for us to read in John 17. The unity he was praying for had to do with some vital elements he was visualizing. He visualized certainly the metaphysical fact of Himself being “the Truth”. He wanted us to be in the 'truth' and the 'truth' in us. That is the way of unity.

So now we have the preconceived assumption that when ‘we’ have Jesus we have ‘all’ the truth that we need to have about anything. If we are proclaiming Jesus in us and are divided still then there is some vital element missing that causes us to not bond together in trust and love.

The wolves and false teachers have come.
We have been torn apart as the visible body of Christ.
Only a remnant of true children of Jesus having Him as Truth in their hearts are to be found throughout the whole of Christianity.

But somewhere along the road the body of Christ visible has gone woefully askew since the first century all the way up till our pesent generation. We are fighting about what is right and want is truth. Among ourselves. Even within each his own denomination. Weird indeed. Why can’t right or wrong be more simple to identify?
May I give you two verses that come from Jesus and Peter…."I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." …."There is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."”

The conclusion stands without any buts or howevers. Only through acceptance of the atonement of Jesus Christ the Son of God, come in the flesh, can the way of Salvation of each and any soul be accounted to them in the great Judgement. The way of Salvation is only through Jesus Christ. He told us that if we love him we will keep his commandments.

However, instead of living in unity on this issue within Christianity we have division, shisims and fighting one another.
We have to ask if we can hold wrong theology or not quite right theology and still be saved when we die in the mindset of that theology? Just how far can we compromise truth and righteousness to still fulfill the prayer of Jesus for our unity?

I noticed that many worship God in various ways in the various denominations. The rites and rituals are varied christian church to church. Is not inevitiable somewhere, because of various approaches to worshipping God, mistakes being made that are displeasing Him?

Cain was sincere as he put the fruit of the field on the altar for his worship. He expected God to accept his effort. Resulting from the rejection he got mad and killed his brother Abel because of the acceptance Abel received for bringing worship to God the way God wanted it to be brought to Him.
Abel had a better way of relating to God. The crux was obedience. Cain had his way of relating to God. The crux was self-righteousness of self-works.

Salvation is not given as a eternal gift at the Judgement because of our great efforts for being morally good religious persons. Having had a peaceful life and being a pillar of correctness in the church does not guarantee eternal life.

The true body of Christ invisible is not fragmented.

Is it important to be right?
It is not an intellectual understanding of an abstract matter that answers that question.
Only the righteousness of Christ as our garment makes us right.

Eurogal

[kevingaily]

Originally posted by Eurogal
Kevin... There is a tv/radio program of The Voice of the Mayrters?

I only know about a flyer or pamphlet I had in hand years ago. I was a very faithful supporter of Richard Wurmbrand.

Eurogal

Yes, Herr Wurmbrand is the starter of TVOTM. There is a monthly magazine as well as my local radio station carries a short 2 or 3 minute message from them. They share about some of the people who are persecuted and ask for prayer for them.

Have you read Herr Wurmbrand's book "Tortured for Christ?" It is a powerful book.

:p

[saved]

Can of worms:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by Redfog:

Is it important to be right on an issue? Will being right save us? Is it wrong (sin) to have wrong theology? What about two diametrical views both supported by the Bible? Is being right important to God?


Are issues such as homosexuals in the church, adornment, women pastors, trinity doctrine, abortion, etc, important in the overall scheme of things?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Interesting reply:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. (1 Cor 1:10)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyone can read Scripture, but how do you interpret it? What does this passage say to you? Is it possible for every church member to agree on everything?

Just how important is it to be right?

It is EXTREEMLY necessary. The reason that the church is so divided is not because they agree, but because they disagree. Agreeing brings unity. Also error costs souls as well as blessings. Today the church is striving to accomplish God's work with division and it will never happen.

Amo 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

satan is so very clever in such discussions. He always brings up probabilities of impossibilities to show the need to bow to lesser standards. (I am not saying that anyone here is satan. I am just showing how he works through us)By that I mean that he poses things like can everyone in a church agree on every single issue. Of course the answer is no, that will most likely never happen. However what he does not point out is that it is not necessary. What is necessary is that ALL who lead are in agreement and teaching the same thing being ever so careful that no one is allowed to hold any position of leadership when they do not agree with all the rest of those who are in leadership. This is what is not happening in the churches today and the churches are divided within themselves.

Next when it is found out that any member in a congregation has a differing understanding on a doctrinal issue they need to be given special individual times of teaching so as to show them their error, or be allowed to show why they are correct and the leaders change their understanding. If the individual cannot be convinced they can remain IF they do not spread their different belief to others causing division. However if they refuse they need to be asked to leave.
Here is an example. I will use myself. I hold to a form of a belief which is called "open theism." I will not get into the details now. The church's leadership where I attend does not hold this belief AT ALL. I would not even try to explain why I believe it to another member and cause some sort of division. I might sit down with the staff and explain it and if they remain unconvinced I would never mention it to another person in that congregation for the sake of unity. Or the staff might show me I am incorrect and I change my mind. Either way is acceptable.,
So can we agree? Yes we can, but it also takes diligent teachers and pastors who guard the flock to keep it pure in its understanding.

[Who Cares?]

Is being right important? Yes.

Someone brought up a story of a church that only had the book of Acts available to them. I think this is an important point, although I may see the lesson taught in this example differently than that poster.

Can we know and experience a saving relationship with God having less than the full knowledge of God that the scriptures makes available to us? Yes, if the whole Bible isn't avialable to us. Would that same church stick only to what is revealed in the book of Acts if the rest of the Bible is made available to them is the question.

To illustrate my point let's say I grew up in a culture where murder was a socially accepted moral act. The Bible becomes available to me and I read it in my language. I become convinced that the Bible is true, and more importantly that murder is wrong. However, I want to maintain my social contacts and standing. If I start saying murder is wrong, and stop practicing something that has always been practiced in my society what will happen to me? I will, of course, be ostracized. I debate in my heart for a long time and decide to choose what I have known all my life rather than what I know to be true and right.

What effect will this have on my standing with God? I have consciously decided that what those around me think is more important than what God has revealed to me. I choose my family and friends for companions rather than God for I choose to go where they go and do what they do rather than go and do what God asks of me. Will I be saved? Is it important to be right?

[me again]

Hi "Who Cares?" :hi:

I finally met someone with a weirder user-name then mine. :crackup:

You raised some interesting points. However:Which is more important:

To be right

-- or --

To demonstrate love to our fellow man, even when we believe he is wrong?This is a very fine line. :think:

[Who Cares?]

I finally met someone with a weirder user-name then mine.

Really? I thought this was the basic tenet of Christianity. Who cares for the sinner? Who cares for me? Who cares for you? Who cares for a dying world? Who cares?

[me again]

Jesus cares so much that He was able to live a sinless life. :up:

I care too. :)

Since we're asking "who cares," do you care?

[Little Lamb]

I love it. :rose: 2 neat screen names, me again and Who Cares? Neat screen names.

[Who Cares?]

Since we're asking "who cares," do you care?

Nah. I just like to "argue" theology. ;) :D :D :D Why else would I come here? :D :D :D

Seriously though, I do care. I believe that mankind's greatest sin is our inhumanity to our fellow man.

[me again]

Who Cares? :shrug: ;) JK

[Little Lamb]

Originally posted by me again
Who Cares? :shrug: ;) JK
me again,