The Word of Faith Movement [Archive]

Greg

12-06-2003, 10:33 PM

I felt I should copy this post here since a thread has been started for this discussion. Thanks Me!

I stopped by for a look see and couldn't help posting. It appears that some have taken an experience they have had with some of the fringe elements of the faith movement and applied it to the entire Word of Faith believers attempting to judge and cripple a portion of the body of Christ.

Procalmations of some of "The Word and the Word alone " yet without providing scripture to substantiate the claims of false teaching either shows someone who doesn't know that which he is accusing or doesn't know the Word concerning it.

I have been a faithful part of the Faith movement for 17 years (having had prior association with both the Baptists and Pentecostals)and never have I heard any such teaching as that Christ had to die spiritually from the men and woman who are called by God to proclaim that we "live by faith" as the just are to do. I am speaking of the likes of Oral and Richard Roberts, Kenneth and Gloria Copeland, Jesse Duplantis, Jerry Sevelle, Kenneth Hagin- both jr. and Sr., John and Joel Olsteen, Mark Barclay, Joyce Meyer, and many others. I am not however saying that there may be those who profess to be a part of the "Word of Faith" movement and yet teach this but this in no way represents the truth of the true biblical "Faith" teaching.

If one is accusing these of false teaching, first provide evidence of their false teachings then present the scripture by which you attempt to prove them wrong or else you are nothing more than a reed blowing in the wind, being tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine or perhaps a false teacher yourself. We are to judge a prophet by their fruits!

The Bible says that ":the just are to live by faith ". One cannot even be saved except by faith through grace. One even has to "speak" their salvation into existance by "believing with their heart and confessing with their mouth ." Jesus spent all His recorded ministry looking for faith and marveled when He found great faith and was dismayed and voiced disappointment when He found little or no faith. The centurion spoke of "those things that are not as though they are", "just speak a word and my servant shall be healed ." The woman with the issue of blood did the same, " if I but touch the hem of His garment ." She did not allow anyrthing to sway her from her faith, not even the chance of being stoned to death.

Hebrews says that "faith is the subtance of things hoped for and not seen " and are we not to "call those things that are not as though they are ?????" And Mark 11:23-24 says we are to "believe we received what we prayed for ". Admittingly this is where the name it and claim it group has gotton off and attempt to speak for themselves Cadillacs and great wealth. But we must love them for they profess Christ as their Lord and thus a part of the body of Christ. Verse 22 which most overlook in this passage has Jesus charging us to "have faith in God ." This very verse I have found to be the basis of the "Faith" teaching of those whom I have previously listed. Again, you should provide proof of their false teachings (within it's context) if you are going to go around accusing them of herecy.

As the body of Christ we all know in part and prophecy in part. None of us has all the right answers. We need what one another has so as to become the whole body of Christ. We cannot all be eyes nor ears but by all of us doing our parts and exhorting one another we can fulfill that which the body has been called to do. If we are constantly judging and ridiculing one another what can we accomplish as the body of Christ? We are not the body of Faith nor the body of Pentecostalism nor any other denomination. The Bible says they (the sinner) shall know we are Christians by our love for one another.

From my experiences within the Pencostal church as a young man I could judge it for the practices for which it professes as doctrine but hold no biblical basis, but I will not for I realize when Jesus said that "before I can help a brother remove a speck from his eye, I must first remove the plank from mine."

I am more than happy to carry on a discussion of the faith movement as it is in the Bible as long as the finger pointing and slander is left by the door!

Godz Marine, SEMPER FI!!!!!

Tomorrow don't forget to say a prayer for the survivors and the families of those who where a part of Pearl Habor!!!

Buzzard

12-06-2003, 10:36 PM

http://www.theologyreview.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=12671#post12671
Originally posted by Greg

As said in the Bible concerning a certain teaching, "if it is of men it shall pass away. If it is of God then there is nothing we can do to stop it." I think I would want to know beyond a shadow of a doubt before I went against God.

SEMPER FI!!!!
Hello Greg;I think I would want to know beyond a shadow of a doubt before I went against God.

Me too;
I think I would want to know beyond a shadow of a doubt before I accepted something as "Of God" else I find myself
That "I went against God"
so once again we are back too
~{Luke 1:1}~
Forasmuch as many have taken in hand
to set forth in order a declaration of those things
which are most surely believed among us,
2 Even as they delivered them unto us,
which from the beginning were eyewitnesses,
and ministers of the word;

3 It seemed good to me also,
having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first,
to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,

-----Luke’s Reason for Writing-----
4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things,

-----Dem Dar Verbal Teachings / Traditions-----
wherein thou hast been instructed.

and as the wise Man Saith~{Proverbs 22:20}~
20 Have not I written to thee excellent things in counsels and knowledge,
21 That I might make thee know the certainty of the words of truth;
that thou mightest answer the words of truth
to them that send unto thee?
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.
You postedAs a side note, Kenneth Hagin Sr. who went to be with the Lord a short while back had preached the same, unchanging message of faith for over 50 years.
The fact he preached it for 50 years don't mean nottin

God Bless Your Bible Studies;
drazzuB

Donny Short

12-06-2003, 11:50 PM

Ok, I'm game.

I am going to make a series of posts in this thread with direct quotes from many of the false prophets Greg mentioned.

You be the judge, take what they have said and line it up with scripture.

I will warn you first though. I am very passionate about the word of faith issue and slam it very hard.

The word of faith movement is the vehicle that satan will use to bring the anti-christ to power. the word of faith movement is the greatest master stroke of satan.

Donny Short

12-06-2003, 11:59 PM

I will start with good ole Benny Hinn

Trademark: Hinn claims to be specially anointed and to have the gifts of healing and financial blessing at his command. Oh yeah, he also claims to be a god.

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Jesus was infected/injected with satan's sin nature in order for redemption to work

"Jesus Christ knew the only way He would stop Satan is by becoming one in nature with him...He became one with the nature of Satan, so all those who had the nature of Satan can partake of the nature of God."

Benny Hinn (TBN December 15 1990)

"He [Jesus] who is righteous by choice said, 'The only way I can stop sin is by Me becoming it. I can't just stop it by letting it touch Me; I and it must become one.' Hear this! He who is the nature of God became the nature of Satan where He became sin!"

Benny Hinn (TBN, December 1, 1990)

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The church is in control, not God

" . . . the anointing is dependent upon my words. God will not move unless I say it. Why? because He has made us coworkers with Him. He set things up that way."

Benny Hinn (The Anointing. 1992. p.82)

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These men think they're Gods!

“When Jesus was on earth, the Bible says that first He disrobed Himself of the divine form. He, the limitless God, became a man, that we men, may become as He is.”

Benny Hinn (“Our Position In Christ” cassette tape #A031190, 1990)

"Let's say, I am a God man.' …This spirit man within me is a God-Man. … I'm a God-Man.”

Benny Hinn (Praise the Lord, TBN, December 6, 1990)

“When you were born again the Word was made flesh in you … You are everything He was and everything He is and ever He shall be .... Don't say,' I have.' Say, ' I am, I am, I am, I am, I am.”

Benny Hinn (“Our Position in Christ #2-The Word Made Flesh” 1991, audiotape #A031190-2, side 2)

“Say after me, within me is a God-man'. …. Let's say, 'I am a God-man'.”

Benny Hinn (aired on Saturday, October 20, 1990, on TBN)

"Jesus said “And I love you enough to make you one of me!”

Benny Hinn (TBN, December 1, 1990 )

“If you say, I am, your saying you’re a part of him, right? Is he God? Are you his offspring? Are you his children? Then you're not human!”

Benny Hinn (Our position in Christ, #2 1990, audio side 2)

“God came to earth and touched a piece of dust and turned it into a God.”

Benny Hinn (TBN, Dec 1, 1990)

"When you say, 'I am a Christian, you are saying, 'I am mashiach' in the Hebrew. I am a little messiah walking on earth, in other words That is a shocking revelation.... May I say it like this? You are a little god on earth running around."

Benny Hinn (Praise-a-thon TBN November 6, 1990)

"Christians are "Little Messiah's and "little gods" on the earth. Thus [Encouraging the audience]...say "I am a God-man....This spirit-man within me is a God-man..." say "I'm born of heaven-a God-man. I'm a God man. I am a sample of Jesus. I'm a super being. Say it! Say it! Who's a super being? "I walk in the realm of the supernatural." Say it!...You want to prosper? Money will be falling on you from left, right and centre. God will begin to prosper you, for money always follows righteousness....Say after me, "everything I ever want is in me already."

Benny Hinn (TBN, 1990)

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The Anointing

"Under this anointing, the words I speak cannot fall to the ground. Under this anointing, everything I say, happens."

Benny Hinn (Praise The Lord, TBN September 10, 1999)

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Gimme money!

"When you don't give money, it shows that you have the devil's nature."

Benny Hinn (Praise-a-thon TBN April 21, 1991)

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The 100 fold theory

“The wicked are piling up the funds and I love the way John [Avazini] teaches on this. He's the best there is on how to get the wealth of the wicked. Man, I like it!”

Benny Hinn (Praise-a-Thon, TBN, Nov. 6 1990 )

"Say after me, all of you, everybody say it, 'The wealth of the wicked is mine.' [The audience repeats.] One more time. [The audience repeats] One more time. [The audience repeats it again]"

Benny Hinn (Praise-a-Thon, TBN, April 1990 )

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The kingdom of God is on earth

"Years ago they used to preach, 'O we are going to walk on streets of gold.' I would say, 'I don't need the gold up there. I've got to have it down here."

Benny Hinn (Praise-a-Thon, TBN, 2nd April 1991 )

The Lord just said to me these words - I'm hearing myself say them for the first time - TBN will not be only a Christian network. It will be an extension of heaven to the earth. And extension - it will be like a tube from heaven that the earth can look and say "I'm looking at heaven, I'm partaking of heaven. I'm getting connected to heaven through this TV tube." If I can say it, it will be heaven's signal to the earth. It will be as though heaven is transmitting and earth is receiving through that set. So if you want to go to heaven, you want to see heaven, you want to taste heaven, turn on that channel, 'cause you will.

Benny Hinn (Praise The Lord, Trinity Broadcasting Network, October 19, 1999)

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The importance of earthly riches

"Poverty comes from Hell. Prosperity comes from Heaven. Christians do not have Christ in their hearts. Sow a big seed, when you confess it, you are activating the supernatural forces of God."

Benny Hinn (Praise-a-thon (TBN), November 6, 1990)

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Sensual manifestations

"when we breathe out we breathe ourselves out and when we breathe in we breathe in the Spirit".

Benny Hinn (TBN July 11, 1997)

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Above Reproach - testing their spirits

"Yes, Lord, I'll do it. I place a curse on every man and every woman that will stretch his hand against this anointing. I curse that man who dares to speak a word against this ministry. But any man and any woman that raises his or her hand in blessing towards this ministry, I bless that man. I bless that home! I bless that family. Under this anointing, the words I speak cannot fall to the ground. Under this anointing, everything I say, happens."

Benny Hinn (TBN September 10, 1999)

"I want to tell you why I believe people get sick...In 2 Chronicles 16, verse 10 - and I like to read this - verse 10 and 11 and 12, the bible says sickness comes when individuals attack preachers."

Benny Hinn (Praise The Lord, TBN, June 8, 1998)

"If you have attacked me, your children will pay for it."

Benny Hinn (TBN "Heresy Hunters" October 23 1992)

Donny Short

12-07-2003, 12:03 AM

Benny Hinn cont.

Death Threats (No, I'm not kidding)

"I want to use Holy Ghost machine gun to kill Heresy Hunters."

Benny Hinn (Praise-a-thon TBN, November 8, 1990 )

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The 9-godhead doctrine

"Man, I feel revelation knowledge already coming on me here. Life your hands. Something new is going to happen here today. I felt it just as I walked down here. Holy Spirit, take over in the name of Jesus...God the Father, ladies and gentlemen, is a person; and he is a triune being by himself separate from the Son and the Holy Ghost. Say, what did you say? Here it, hear it, hear it. See, God the Father is a person, God the Son is a person, God the Holy Ghost is a person. But each one of them is a triune being by Himself. If I can shock you - and maybe I should - there's nine of them. Huh, what did you say? Let me explain: God the Father, ladies and gentlemen, is a person with his own personal spirit, with his own personal soul, and his own personal spirit body. You say, Huh, I never heard that. Well, you think you're in this church to hear things you've heard for the last 50 years? You can't argue with the Word, can you? It's all in the Word".

Benny Hinn (Praise The Lord, TBN October 3, 1990)

God has 9 parts (tritheism).
A. God has a body, soul and spirit.
B. Jesus has a body, soul and spirit.
C. Holy Spirit has a body, soul and spirit.

Benny Hinn (Benny Hinn broadcast, recorded 10/13/90 )

Paul Crouch: Let's talk a little bit about theology now. These are issues that I consider to be up for debate, discussion, within the broad spectrum of the body of Christ. You don't have total agreement on, for example, the Trinity. There is a group, the Jesus Only group, or the Oneness group that believes that there's only one Person - anyway, we won't get into that deeply into the doctrinal aspect, but you have been attacked on some statements that you have made concerning the Trinity and the members of the Godhead. How many are there in the Godhead?

Benny Hinn: Three.

Crouch: Three.

Hinn: Simply three.

Crouch: Not nine.

Hinn: Goodness.

Crouch: Where did that silly charge come from?

Hinn: [Unintelligible] It almost became comical. Paul, here's what I believe. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. Three separate Individuals, one in essence, one in work, and each one of them possesses His own spirit body. That's what I believe. If you don't like it.

Benny Hinn (Benny Hinn, Praise The Lord, October 23, 1992)

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Demons

"Do you know that every unbeliever is filled with a demon spirit?"

Benny Hinn (Good Morning Holy Spirit, 1991 p.146)

Now here's something else that you may have never thought about: A fortune teller cannot tell the future of a believer, because demons plan the life of an unbeliever. See, every unbeliever, when born, his life was planned by the demonic or by demons. There is a demon that is given charge over every born baby on planet earth, 'til redemption. When that baby is born again, when the child is given to God, that demon loses control and can no longer predict that person's future.

Benny Hinn (Praise the Lord, Trinity Broadcasting Network, May 13, 1999)

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Necromancy

"Now, I don't understand why the Lord allowed me to see that. I've not just seen angels; I've seen saints. Can I tell you? This might even shock you a little more. The Lord gave me a vision of Kathryn Kuhlman sitting with what seemed to be a group of people . . . and every one of them seemed to be urging me to pray. Now, I know this sounds crazy, but it's all right. I don't mind crazy because I liked what I saw . . . I was in prayer at uh, least hours . . . At least fifty to seventy of them sitting in a group, and they were saying to me, 'Pray! Ask God to give you a healing ministry that will touch the world! And suddenly, I heard Kathryn's voice and suddenly there she was its crystal clear. And she in her beautiful smile, she said, 'Ask! We're waiting for you to ask! We're praying with you to ask!' And the vision disappeared. And suddenly I said, 'Lord!' And I asked. A week later the anointing hit my life. I believe the saints in Heaven urge us to pray. Urge us to do it! ."

Benny Hinn (Blaisdale Arena, Honolulu, HI, 2/28/97 )

Hinn revealed that he periodically visits (Kathryn) Kuhlman's grave and that he is one of the few with a key to gain access to it. He also visits Aimee (McPherson's) grave where he says: "I felt a terrific anointing ... I was shaking all over ... trembling under the power of God ... `Dear God,' I said, `I feel the anointing.' ... I believe the anointing has lingered over Aimee's body."

Benny Hinn (April 7, 1991 sermon)

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Jesus didn't preexist his role on earth

"The Bible says the prophets spoke the Word not knowing what they were saying. But 4000 years passed when the Word became a human being and walked and talked and moved. The spoken Word became a human being. The spoken Word became flesh. The spoken Word got legs on, arms, eyes, hair, a body. And He was no longer saying, 'Thus sayeth the Lord.' He was saying, 'I say unto you.' The Word that was spoken through the lip [sic] of prophets was now walking on the seashore of Galilee"

Benny Hinn (TBN December 15 1990)

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I'm sinfree!

Benny Hinn says that Christians confessing they are "a sinner saved by grace" only insult God with such "garbage"

Benny Hinn (The Toronto Blessing, Stephen Sizer, 1990)

"God sent Jesus as an example to see if we could retain and maintain the Holy Spirit in human flesh."

Benny Hinn (TBN July 23, 1997)

"Now, Jesus endured the cross and looked towards the cross by the power of the Holy Ghost....And here's something that's amazing. Paul! He was kept sinless by the Spirit. Because the Bible says He offered Himself spotless through the Spirit. Watch this, it's right here. "How much more shall the blood of Christ Who, through the eternal Spirit, offered Himself without spot." So had the Holy Ghost not been there, then Jesus would have sinned."

Benny Hinn (Praise The Lord, TBN, April 24, 1998)

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False Prophesies

Benny: I had a word of prophecy from Ruth Heflin. You know who Ruth Heflin is? Ruth prophesied over me back in the '70s and everything she said has happened. She's just sent me a word through my wife and said, the Lord spoke to her audibly and said that He is going to appear physically in one of our crusades in the next few months.

Steve Brock: My God! I'm ready for that!

Benny: Yeah. She - I'm telling you! - she said, the Lord spoke to her audibly and said "Tell Benny I'm going to appear physically on the platform in his meeting."

Benny Hinn (Benny Hinn with Steve Brock, This is Your Day, TBN March 29, 2000 )

The Spirit tells me - Fidel Castro will die - in the 90's. Oooh my! Some will try to kill him and they will not succeed. But there will come a change in his physical health, and he will not stay in power, and Cuba will be visited of God.

Benny Hinn (Orlando Christian Center, Dec. 31st, 1989. )

I believe that Jesus, God's Son, is about to appear physically in meetings and to believers around the world to wake us up. He appeared after His resurrection and He's about to appear before His second coming.

Benny Hinn (TBN Praise-a-thon, April 2, 2000 )

"You know, a prophetess sent me a word through my wife right here, and she said 'Tell your husband that Jesus is going to physically appear in his meetings.' I'm expecting to see - I'm telling you that, I feel it's going to happen. I know deep in my soul something supernatural is going to happen in Nairobi, Kenya. I may very well come back - we may very well come back with footage of Jesus on the platform

Benny Hinn (TBN Praise-a-thon, April 2, 2000)

Buzzard

12-07-2003, 12:03 AM

Originally posted by Rev Donny Short
Ok, I'm game.

The word of faith movement is the vehicle that satan will use to bring the anti-christ to power. the word of faith movement is the greatest master stroke of satan.

AHHHH, good;

#1:
The word of Faith movement will not bring the Anti-Christ to power
for he comes forth from the 1st beast and is the eighth {8th} Horn,
but he still leads the same Seven {7} Horned Beast of the past

#2:
The Word of Faith movement could very well bring forth
the False Prophet to lead the Two {2} Horned beast tho.
for he promises to fulfill all the promises made to gods people given in scripture,
and set up the earthly kingdom, Israel wanted so badly

drazzuB

Donny Short

12-07-2003, 12:06 AM

Benny Hinn part 3 of 3.

God's physical description

“What does God the Father look like? Although I've never seen Him, I believe - as with the Holy Spirit - He looks like Jesus looked on earth.”

Benny Hinn (Good Morning Holy Spirit, 1991, p.87)

“What was the appearance of God the Father? Like that of a man...God has the likeness of fingers and hands and a face.”

Benny Hinn (Good Morning Holy Spirit, 1991, p. 82)

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Adam was a superman and the first man on the moon

"Adam was a super-being when God created him. I don't know whether people know this, but he was the first superman that really ever lived. First of all, the Scriptures declare clearly that he had dominion over the fowls of the air, the fish of the sea--which means he used to fly. Of course, how can he have dominion over the birds and not be able to do what they do? The word 'dominion' in the Hebrew clearly declares that if you have dominion over a subject, that you do everything that subject does. In other words, that subject, if it does something you cannot do, you don't have dominion over it. 1'11 prove it further. Adam not only flew, he flew to space. He was--with one thought he would be on the moon."

Benny Hinn (Praise the Lord, TBN December 26, 1991)

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Never say "Thy Will be Done"!

...never, ever, ever go to the Lord and say, "If it be thy will…" Don't allow such faith-destroying words to be spoken from your mouth. When you pray "if it be your will, Lord," faith will be destroyed. Doubt will billow up and flood your being. Be on guard against words like this which will rob you of your faith and drag you down in despair.

Benny Hinn (Rise & Be Healed! p. 47-48)

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Health is yours for the claiming

Sickness does not belong to you. It has no part in the Body of Christ. Sickness does not belong to any of us. The Bible declares if the Word of God is in our life, there will be health, there will be healing - divine health and divine healing. There will be no sickness for the saint of God. If Moses could live such a healthy life, so can you….He promises to heal all - every one, any, any whatsoever, everything - all our diseases! That means not even a headache, sinus problem, not even a toothache - nothing! No sickness should come your way

Benny Hinn (Rise & Be Healed!, p. 14, 32)

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You ARE Jesus!

Don't tell me you have Jesus. You ARE everything He was and everything He is and ever shall be....

You ARE Jesus!

Benny Hinn (Teaching tape, Our Position in Christ #2, 1990 )

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Anyone could have redeemed us

Not been able to. In fact, if Jesus could not sin, you and I could not have identified with Him.

Benny Hinn (Praise The Lord, Trinity Broadcasting Network, April 24, 1998)

Donny Short

12-07-2003, 12:08 AM

Paul Crouch

Trademark: Paul and Jan own the Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN), the platform of the Word of Faith movement.

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These men think they're Gods!

(Speaking to Kenneth Copeland) "Somebody said--I don't know who said it--but they claim that you Faith teachers declare that we are gods. You're a god. I'm a god. Small 'g' now, but we are the gods of this world. . . . Well, are you a god--small 'g'?" To this, Jan Crouch, referring to Copeland, enthusiastically exclaimed: "He's gonna say, 'Yes.' I love it."

Paul Crouch (Praise the Lord TBN February 5, 1986)

"He [God] doesn't even draw a distinction between Himself and us. . . . You know what else that's settled, then, tonight? This hue and cry and controversy that has been spawned by the Devil to try and bring dissension within the body of Christ that we are gods. I am a little god! . . . I have His name. I'm one with Him. I'm in covenant relation. I am a little god! Critics, be gone!"

Paul Crouch (Praise the Lord, TBN July 7, 1986)

"God draws no distinction between Himself and us. God opens up the union of the very godhead (Trinity), and brings us into it."

Paul Crouch (Praise-a-thon TBN, November 1990)

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Gimme money!

"if you have been healed or saved or blessed through TBN and have not contributed to (the) station, you are robbing God and will lose your reward in heaven."

Paul Crouch (Praise the Lord, TBN August 4, 1997)

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Above Reproach - testing their spirits

Paul's classic rant from the April 2, 1991, TBN Praise-a-thon (broken apart for readibility)

"...that old rotten Sandedrin crowd (i.e., those who oppose the "unity movement" for doctrinal reasons- for instance, those who allege the incompatibility of Catholic and evangelical theology), twice dead, plucked up by the roots...they're damned and on their way to hell and I don't think there's any redemption for them...

...the hypocrites, the heresy hunters that want to find a little mote of illegal doctrine in some Christian's eyes...when they've got a whole forest in their own lives...I say, to hell with you! Get out of my life! Get out of the way! Quit blockin' God's bridges (of ecumenism)! I'm tired of this!...

This is in my spirit. Oh Hallelujah...Have you ever seen the old movie, Patton?...He's my hero, he's my hero. Old nail-chewing, tobacco-chewin', cussin' Patton- but he read the Bible every day. I have a feelin' we'll see old General George in Heaven...

There's a wonderful scene in Patton...they're tryin' to get the Third Army across the bridge in France and there's an old, dumb jackass...right there on the bridge and it's blockin' the whole convoy of troops...General George roars up, pulls that ivory-handled revolver out...and shoots the donkey...

There's a spiritual application here...I want to say to all you Scribes, Pharisees, heresy hunters, all of you that are going around pickin' little bits of doctrinal error out of everybody's eyes and dividin' the Body of Christ...get out of God's way, stop blockin' God's bridges (of unity), or God's goin' to shoot you if I don't...

...let Him sort out all this doctrinal doodoo!...I refuse to argue any longer with any of you out there! Don't even call me if you want to argue...Get out of my life! I don't want to talk to you...I don't want to see your ugly face!

God, we proclaim death to anything or anyone that will lift a hand against this network and this ministry that belongs to You, God. It is Your work, it is Your idea, it is Your property, it is Your airwaves, it is Your world, and we proclaim death to anything that would stand in the way of God's great voice of proclamation to the whole world. In the Name of Jesus, and all the people said Amen!"

Paul Crouch (April 2, 1991, TBN Praise-a-thon)

Donny Short

12-07-2003, 12:12 AM

John Avanzini

Trademark: Avanzini's claim to fame is that he is the master fundraiser of the Word of Faith crowd. He is brought in to ministries when they are in max-donation gathering mode.

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Jesus was wealthy and had an expensive ministry

Jesus had a nice house, a big house - big enough to have company stay the night with Him at the house. Let me show you His house. Go over to John the first chapter and I'll show you His house.... Now, child of God, that's a house big enough to have company stay the night in. There's His house." Note: It was Peter's mother's house in Capernaum that was often used as a base, it was not His.

John Avanzini (Believer's Voice of Victory, TBN January 20, 1991)

"John 19 tells us that Jesus wore designer clothes. Well, what else you gonna call it? Designer clothes - that's blasphemy. No, that's what we call them today. I mean, you didn't get the stuff He wore off the rack. It wasn't a one-size-fits-all deal. No, this was custom stuff. It was the kind of garment that kings and rich merchants wore. Kings and rich merchants wore that garment."

John Avanzini (Believer's Voice of Victory, TBN January 20, 1991)

"Jesus had an expensive ministry"

John Avanzini (Praise the Lord, TBN September 15, 1988)

"Paul had the kind of money that could stop up justice."

John Avanzini (Believer's Voice of Victory, TBN, January 20, 1991)

"Jesus was handling big money because that treasurer He had was a thief. Now you can't tell me that a ministry with a treasurer that's a thief can operate on a few pennies. It took big money to operate that ministry because Judas was stealing out of that bag. If you have a treasurer, that means you have a lot of money."

John Avanzini (Praise the Lord, TBN, September 15, 1988)

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The 100 fold theory

“I’m usually not allowed to speak about this,” Avanzini tells the TBN audience. “God only tells me at certain times that I can… I’m going to speak the hundred-fold increase in just a few moments”

John Avanzini (November, 1990 Praise-a-Thon )

"The 100 fold is for this time were in. What would we do with the 100 fold in streets of heaven, because heavens streets are made of gold. You need the 100 fold because people need salvation, harvest time is the most expensive time on the farm, so you need abundance. God loves nice things he’s not a spin thrift but a waster.”

John Avanzini (November, 1990 Praise-a-Thon )

The cross proved a 3-fold dimension of redemption.

John Avanzini (Praise the Lord (TBN), 9/15/88 )

30, 60, 100 fold

John Avanzini (Believer's Voice of Victory, (TBN) 3/7/91 )

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Results of lack of faith

[Thinking otherwise, Avanzini claims,] "will prevent Christians from reaping the prosperity God has laid out for them".

John Avanzini ("Was Jesus Poor?" video)

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Above Reproach - testing their spirits

"I don't know where these goofy traditions creep in at, but one of the goofiest ones is that Jesus and His disciples were poor. Now there's no Bible to substantiate that."

John Avanzini ("Was Jesus poor? video)

Donny Short

12-07-2003, 12:14 AM

Paul Cain

Trademark: Cain claims that he and Bob Jones are the foretold Two Prophets of Revelation and are responsible for the triumphant church conquering the world and cleaning it up so that Jesus can return. Rick Joyner backs this claim.

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The church is in control, not God

"We are the ones who will choose if the next move of God will be a day of salvation or a day of judgment - for those who reject it...will have a more severe judgment ...the past no longer exists and those who try to live in it cease to be a part of what God is doing today."

Paul Cain (The Word and the Spirit conference , London October 1992)

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These men think they're Gods!

". . . There is a ministry after the five-fold called the ministry of perfection - the Melchisedek Priesthood . . . your children will be moving into the ministries of Perfection . . . coming into that Divine Nature of Jesus Christ . . . they themselves will be that generation that's raised up to put death itself underneath their feet . . . because the Lord Jesus is worthy to be lifted up by a church that has reached the full maturity of the GOD-MAN!"

Paul Cain ((Kansas City Fellowship) transcribed from 1988 tape)

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The Anointing

"No prophet or apostle who ever lived equaled the power of these individuals in this great army of the Lord in these last days. No one ever had it, not even Elijah or Peter or Paul, or anyone else enjoyed the power that is gong to rest on this great army."

Paul Cain ("Selections from the Kansas City Prophets," audiotape: 155C)

"God's raising up a new standard, a new banner, if you will, that's going to radically change the expression, the understanding of Christianity in our generation...God has invited us to have a role in establishing a new order of Christianity...God is offering to this generation something He has never offered to any other generation...beware lest old order brethren rob you and steal this hope from you."

Paul Cain ("You Can Become the Word!," 1989, Vineyard Prophetic Conference)

"So my point is, that there will be a manifestation of the sons and daughters of God. And it won't be this baloney that we've heard of in the past; I mean, there's been a few people tried to walk through a wall like this over here and knocked their brain loose, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a true manifested son of God: if anyone walks through this wall over here, they're not going to tell you about it- I mean, they're just going to do it. And sons of God don't tell you they're sons of God, they'll just show You! Amen!"

Paul Cain (The New Breed)

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The kingdom of God is on earth

"Remember that every stone is a living stone and my fathers house is really not heaven, as we have been led to believe for these many years. God's people all over the earth tonight are having this revelation that the fathers' house is not really heaven. I tell you there is one greater than us [John] that had an open vision of heaven, and he saw no temple there.... Oh, let me tell you my friends, WE are the temple, we are the house, we are the dwelling place of God and wherever that is we can call it heaven. We can really say, we are the father's house and we can count on it, whether it's here or whether it's there, or whether it's somewhere else, it's the father house - not heaven we are really talking about!"

Paul Cain (“My Father’s House" November 1988 audio)

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The Second Coming is spiritual, not physical

"I don't know what the Second Coming means to you, there's so many different returns of the Lord, or comings of the Lord, I don't know, we have a cardinal doctrine like that, but let me tell you he's coming to YOU. he's coming to his Church, he is coming to abide in you, to take up his abode in you."

Paul Cain (“My Father’s House" November 1988 audio )

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Above Reproach - testing their spirits

"If you don't think I am anointed that just shows you how the devil has fooled you."

Paul Cain (MCF, 12/31/1998)

" Don't speak a word against signs and wonders and the prophetic ministry in these last days or God's zeal will chasten you!"

Paul Cain ("The Prophet Christ For the Nations, September 1989, p. 5)

"...I know some of you are going to disagree with this. Don't you even stop to disagree. Revelation 12:5. If you disagree, just file it in 'miscellaneous' and check it out. And don't bother with it; when we get to heaven we'll check it out and you'll find out I'm right..."

Paul Cain (Paul Cain, regarding his exposition of the Man-Child company, at the Prophetic Power and Passion Conference, Christ Chapel, Florence, Alabama, August, 1995)

Donny Short

12-07-2003, 12:15 AM

Paul Yonggi David Cho

Trademark: Cho is a Gnostic whose teachings are focused on Eastern mysticism

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The church is in control, not God

"You create the presence of Jesus with your mouth ... He is bound by your lips and by your words ... Remember that Christ is depending upon you and your spoken word to release His presence."

Paul Yonggi (David) Cho (The Fourth Dimension, Vol.1 1979, p. 83)

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4th Dimension of non-carnal attainment

"Then God spoke to my heart, 'Son... the spirit is the fourth dimension. ...[as] the third dimension includes and controls the second dimension, so the fourth dimension includes and controls the third dimension, producing a creation of order and beauty."

Paul Yonggi (David) Cho (The Fourth Dimension, p. 38-40)

"There are three spiritual forces in the earth. The Spirit of God, the spirit of man, and the spirit of Satan.... All three spirits are in the realm of the fourth dimension, so naturally spirits can hover over the material third dimension and exercise creative powers.... "The Holy Spirit said, 'My son, man still does not realize the spiritual power that I have given him.'" "Yes, I said, realizing what God was referring to.... False prophets had power in the realm of the spirit because they had come to realize their potential."

Paul Yonggi (David) Cho (The Fourth Dimension, Volume Two, p. 38)

"God spoke to my heart, "Son... the fourth dimension includes and controls the third dimension, producing a creation of order and beauty. The spirit is the fourth dimension." "Every human being is a spiritual being.... They have the fourth dimension as well as the third dimension in their hearts." "In Genesis the Spirit of the Lord was incubating, brooding over the water; He was like a hen sitting on her eggs, incubating them and hatching chickens. In much the same manner the Holy Spirit incubates the third dimension, so does the evil spirit incubate...." "You may wonder how we can incubate our subconsious... the only way for us to incubate is through our imaginations.... Through visualizing and dreaming you can incubate your future and hatch results...." "So men [Christians or occultists], by exploring their spiritual sphere of the fourth dimension through the development of concentrated visions and dreams in their imagination, can brood over and incubate the third dimension, influencing and changing it." "This is what the Holy Spirit taught me."

Paul Yonggi (David) Cho (The Fourth Dimension, p. 39-44)

Cho's concept of fourth-dimensional thinking is nothing short of occultism. In his best-selling book "The Fourth Dimension", Cho unveils his departure from historic Christian theology and his entry into the world of the occult. Cho lists four steps in his incubation formula:
1) Visualize a clear-cut goal or idea in your mind;
2) have a burning desire for your objective;
3) pray until you get the guarantee or assurance from God that what you desire is already yours;
4) speak or confess the end result into existence.

Paul Yonggi (David) Cho (Hank Hanegraaff, Christianity in Crisis, 1993 citing Paul Yonggi Cho, The Fourth Dimension, Volume One (So. Plainfield, NJ: Bridge Publishing, 1979), 9-35; vol. 2, 18-33 )

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Words are spiritual containers

"By the spoken word we create our universe of circumstances...."

Paul Yonggi (David) Cho (Solving Life's Problems, p. 51)

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Visual empowerment

"We've got to learn how... to visualize and dream the answer as being completed as we go to the Lord in prayer. We should always try to visualize the end result as we pray." "In that way, with the power of the Holy Spirit, we can incubate that which we want God to do for us...." "God used this process of visualizing the situation to help Abraham.... By that visualization through the associated thought Abraham... could incubate his [future] children and dispel the doubts from his heart.... The main thing is that we should know the importance of visualization."

Paul Yonggi (David) Cho (The Fourth Dimension, Volume Two, pp.26-27)

"We should always try to visualize the end result as we pray.... If you have not visualized clearly in your heart exactly what you hope for, it cannot become a reality to you...." "We have taught our people how to... visualize success.... Through visualizing and dreaming, you can incubate your future and hatch the results."

Paul Yonggi (David) Cho (The Fourth Dimension, Volume Two, pp. 25-28, 68, The Fourth Dimension, p. 44)

"Through visualization and dreaming you can incubate your future and hatch the results."

Paul Yonggi (David) Cho (The Fourth Dimension, p. 44)

"I imagine that Abraham... when he looked up at the stars, all he could see were the faces of his children, and suddenly he felt that he was hearing them call to him, 'Father Abraham!'" "...He could not sleep when he closed his eyes, for he saw all the stars changing into the faces of his descendants.... Those pictures came to his mind again and again... [and] became part of his fourth dimension...." "These visions and dreams carried dominion over his one- hundred-year-old body, and it was transformed as if it were like a young body."

Paul Yonggi (David) Cho (The Fourth Dimension, p. 48)

Buzzard

12-07-2003, 12:17 AM

http://www.theologyreview.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=12683#post12683Originally posted by Rev Donny Short
I will start with good ole Benny Hinn

Above Reproach - testing their spirits

"Yes, Lord, I'll do it. I place a curse on every man and every woman that will stretch his hand against this anointing. I curse that man who dares to speak a word against this ministry. But any man and any woman that raises his or her hand in blessing towards this ministry, I bless that man. I bless that home! I bless that family. Under this anointing, the words I speak cannot fall to the ground. Under this anointing, everything I say, happens."

Benny Hinn (TBN September 10, 1999)
(TBN "Heresy Hunters" October 23 1992)

OH NO:

Please tell me he didn't say that

Eliphaz:
Fine Gold is my God
~{Job 5:1}~-----Eliphaz Speaking----
Call now, if there be any that will answer thee;
and to which of the saints wilt thou turn?
2 For wrath killeth the foolish man,
and envy slayeth the silly one.
3 I have seen the foolish taking root:
:doh:
but suddenly I cursed his habitation.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.
Originally posted by Rev Donny Short

Benny Hinn (Praise The Lord, TBN, June 8, 1998)

"If you have attacked me, your children will pay for it."

Benny Hinn (TBN "Heresy Hunters" October 23 1992)

NOOOOOooooo;
:doh:
Thats straight out of the book of Job
and why Jobs children were slain
~{Job 1:18}~
18 While he was yet speaking, there came also another,
and said,
Thy sons and thy daughters
were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother’s house:
19 And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness,
and smote the four corners of the house,
and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead;
and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

drazzuB

Donny Short

12-07-2003, 12:18 AM

Kim Clement

Trademark: Clement is a notorious false prophet that hails from Detroit. Many of these quotes were taken from his Statement of Faith on his website, dated 9/26/01.

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The kingdom of God is on earth

"The idea that we have to wait until we get to heaven to get our crown is a whole lot of garbage. We will receive our crowns here on earth. How can we be kings on this earth without our crowns? ...We are meant to rule and to reign here on the earth.''

Kim Clement (Doctrinal Statement September 26, 2001)

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4th Dimension of non-carnal attainment

"Satan is not concerned about whether or not you are going to heaven. He does, however, tremble at the thought of a Christian obtaining "perception" [spiritual sight] because of spiritual knowledge."

Kim Clement (Doctrinal Statement September 26, 2001)

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The Second Coming is spiritual, not physical

"Many have questioned my doctrine and what I believe because of my strong feeling of disgust toward the escapism teaching. Some have even said that I do not believe in the Second Coming of Jesus Christ because of my continual attack against a passive message of escapism. Sometimes I deliberately make statements that contradict their teaching because of the great deception that has captured the attention of a large percentage of the church. Our goal is to reach the lost, however, there is so much self righteousness within many of the leading preachers, who continually manipulate those beloved Christians by forcing them to live "holy" lives based on the fear of missing the rapture, or going to hell."

Kim Clement (Doctrinal Statement September 26, 2001)

"I believe in the 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ. I believe in the fact of meeting Him in the air, but for a different reason than to escape from the wrath of the beast."

Kim Clement (Doctrinal Statement September 26, 2001)

"When God returns to this Garden a 2nd time He will not find His Adam [Christ], nor His bride fallen, but in a completely different position to the first Adam, victorious over the same serpent that beguiled Eve and walking with God."

Kim Clement (Doctrinal Statement September 26, 2001)

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Above Reproach - testing their spirits

"I believe that His coming is for a triumphant and glorious church, not a bunch of passive, backbiting, heresy hunters who cause division."

Kim Clement (Doctrinal Statement September 26, 2001)

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Salvation

"I do not believe that you must be born again to obtain salvation. I believe there is a distinction"

Kim Clement (Doctrinal Statement September 26, 2001)

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False Prophesies

[Referencing that no Americans will be killed in Iraq]

On April 1st 2001, I said “America prepare yourself, you will go to war”. Subsequently, the Spirit began to share some of the details about the possible length of the battle and the outcome. I spoke about certain attacks planned against the soldiers and the fact that God would protect them so that not one of them would be inflicted. I believe with all of my heart that America is in the perfect will of God. A tyrant lives, and yet there are people in this nation shouting the odds about the instrument that God has chosen as his battle-axe - the President of the United States of America.

Kim Clement (http://www.kimclement.com/newsflashes/newsflashes.htm, March 19th 2003 )

Dean Brown: What is the prophetic word concerning the Middle East? I mean, is there a specific prophetic word that you are giving now? I mean, you gave a general word that the Islamic nations would come to Christ, but is there a specific time frame that God speaks to your spirit about?

Kim Clement: Yes, well some of it I can't share now, of course, but 2002 is when I saw this huge thing happening because of something that happened between America and China, funny enough, that would take place and then - I saw that eight years ago - and then as a result of that I saw the surrender of masses of wealth coming from the East to the United States of America and the West.

Kim Clement (Praise the Lord, 9/3/2001)

God wants us to go to the back streets. He wants to have a cure for AIDS. He said it’s going to be by the year 2002, there’s going to be a cure for AIDS.

Well, somebody said "Well, those homosexuals deserve to have AIDS." No they don’t. You deserve to die, but Jesus died for you 2000 years ago. I don’t think anybody deserves to die. There’s gonna be a cure and there’s gonna be a Christian that is a scientist that’s gonna come across a discovery.

An announcement was just made the other day by Sharon Stone after I made the announcement nationally that there was going to be a cure for AIDS in the year 2002. She said "In my lifetime [unintelligible] and the doctors, we don’t see a cure for AIDS." That’s called a prognosis. It’s called a prognostication. The prophets hate any prognosis that defies what God has given them to say.

Kim Clement (Praise the Lord, 12/26/2000)

Donny Short

12-07-2003, 12:21 AM

Creflo Dollar

Trademark: Dollar, as his name implies, is a fan of dead presidents - preferably the ones that are printed on treasury notes.

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These men think they're Gods!

“ I’m going to have to reproduce Myself. Like I’m God up here in heaven. I’m going to make Me a god and put Myself in the physical body so that he can guard the earth and keep out all intruders in the earth ... Now that gives us a little insight on why God wanted a god on the earth like He was God in heaven ... When God made Adam all He did was make an exact imprint of Himself. He duplicated Himself ... If you eat of this fruit, you will be like God. What’s the problem? He’s already like God. He was already like God."

Creflo Dollar (Our equality with God Through Righteousness January 21,2001)

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Jesus was wealthy and had an expensive ministry

"I'm telling you, Jesus wasn't poor, and He didn't wear no rags, either. Like we march in on these Easter little plays that we do at our church, with those raggedy sheets on. Jesus didn't have no rags on. He wore designer clothes, honey!"

Creflo Dollar (Creflo Dollar Crusade, February 9, 1999)

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The kingdom of God is on earth

"Look at this. Revelation 3:17. Notice Jesus is talking here. He said, "Because thou saith 'I am rich, and increased with goods'"- See, we think in this society you can be rich and increased in good and not be poor. But now notice what He says: "Because thou saith 'I am rich, and increased with goods and have need of nothing'" - He said "That's what you said." - "And you knowest not that thou art wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked." Now wait a minute. This boy got money. He said "Yeah, but he's still broke in other areas of his life." Now here's what Jesus is trying to do over here in Luke. Go back to Luke, Chapter 4:18. Here's what Jesus wants to show us. This anointing is available to deliver whoever is without. Wherever you need to be made whole, the Gospel is the Good News about the power of God on Jesus to make you whole and get you out of your poverty, whether it's poverty in health or poverty in a blind money or poverty in money. This anointing is ready to deal with poverty. This anointing is ready to remove the burden and destroy the yoke. So, honey, you can be healthy tonight and you can be, you have your eyesight and you're able to walk, but you ain't got no money in your pocketbook, I'm telling you this anointing is ready to put some money in your pocketbook because He's ready to remove the burden of lack."

Creflo Dollar (Praise The Lord, TBN July 20, 1999)

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The importance of earthly riches

"See, there are some people that believe not in prosperity. There are some people that don't want to hear it, they don't want to have anything to do with it. You say money in church, they put their little finger up and they go to walking out the church. As broke as they are, they go walking out church with their little finger up, 'cause Satan's got their minds blind. They've been blinded in their minds. They don't want to hear about prosperity. They don't want to hear about, that God is a God that wants to put money in your hand, that God is a God that has prosperity on His mind. They don't want to hear that. "Bless God, I want to hear about love and joy and peace. Well, you need to hear about money, because you ain't gonna have no love and joy and peace until you get some money!”

Creflo Dollar (Praise The Lord, TBN July 20, 1999)

"Now, last night we began to deal with the relationship between peace and prosperity, and we found out that the Hebrew word for "peace" is the word "shalom," and that word means "wholeness, completeness, nothing missing and nothing broken." And we read, and we'll look at it again tonight, it says "my soul is far from prosperity." Why? "Because my soul's far from peace because I forgot prosperity." We established last night that you are not whole until you get your money. Amen. Amen."

Creflo Dollar (Praise The Lord, TBN July 20, 1999)

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Results of lack of faith

"The substance of the house you want is faith substance. …before the wood, before the tree, before the seed, there was the substance. And when you get the substance, then you can get the seed, which will bring the tree, which will produce the wood, which will build your house. But without faith stuff, you have no stuff, because faith stuff is the stuff of all stuff. Take away the faith stuff, you ain't got no stuff. Get the faith stuff, and you can get some more stuff, because you got the main stuff. Now, did you get all that stuff?"

Creflo Dollar (Changing Your World Show, September 20, 1998)

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Words are spiritual containers

"Start speaking your freedom. There is no such thing as deliverance in this physical, natural realm aside from your mouth. Your mouth is connected to your life. Death and life is in the power of the tongue. You're going to have to start speaking to the spirit of debt. If you don't speak to the debt, debt gonna talk to you. Jesus spoke to a thing. He spoke to a fig tree. The Bible says "He answered it and said," so obviously the fig tree must have been saying something to Him. It had leaves on it, but it didn't have no figs on it. And Jesus showed up hungry and the fig tree said, "I bet you think I've got some figs on me, but I ain't got no figs on me and I know you're hungry because I see you shaking, but I ain't got no figs on me. You still going to be hungry." Jesus answered it and said, "Well then, no man will eat fruit of thee hereafter." See, things will talk to you."

Creflo Dollar (Creflo Dollar Crusade, TBN, February 9, 1999)

"Now, God used faith substance to make everything that He made…in every one of those words they were filled with faith substance, because words are nothing but containers…. every time God speaks, He can't help but to speak words that are filled with faith…God's guts are called faith stuff…. Everything in Him is faith. … What's in His heart is faith….if you were to cut God open, you'd see nothing but faith. Every time He opens His mouth now, He automatically fills those words with His faith material."

Creflo Dollar (Changing Your World Show, September 20, 1998)

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Above Reproach - testing their spirits

"You operate by a spirit of poverty if you are critical of those who preach and teach prosperity. My God, man, I told you last night that Bible talks more about money than it does about heaven, and all we got to do is open the Bible up for ourselves and see it instead of sitting there being afraid to hear it."

Creflo Dollar (Praise The Lord, TBN July 20, 1999)

Donny Short

12-07-2003, 12:24 AM

Jesse Duplantis

Trademark: Jesse is known for his Prosperity Gospel, Man's Power over God and God's Kingdom is Really on Earth teachings.

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The church is in control, not God

“I can honestly say that the Lord has done everything I have prayed for ”

Jesse Duplantis (Heaven Close Encounters of the God kind p.44)

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The 100 fold theory

[This exegesis on Mark 4, is that this is the most important chapter in the Bible] “Now the Lord told us to go into the world and preach the gospel to every creature, didn't He? It costs billions of dollars to do that, between the satellite communication hookup and everything! Well, how come we haven't done it yet? Because we've lost verse 4, we've lost verse 5, we've lost verse 7. Every once in a while we get blessed on verse 8. But just think if you got blessed 30, 60 or 100 fold on verse 4; 30, 60 or 100 fold on verse 5; 30, 60 or 100 fold on verse 7… every time you give God $50, He gives you $5000. Every time you give Him $100, He gives you $10,000. Every time you give Him $1000, He gives you $100,000. Every time you give him $100,000, $10 million. Before you know it, that building is yours, because they will sell it for the right price. You pick the denomination, God picks the multiplication.”

Jesse Duplantis (TBN, September 21, 1998)

“I declare and Decree the anointing of increase”

Jesse Duplantis (to his congregation December 12, 1999)

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The kingdom of God is on earth

"The religious world says, "Oh Lord, I just want just enough to get me by." Well, what happens when you get by? When you get by something you gotta go somewhere else. See, God will bless you as much as you can receive. People say, "Well, I believe God. I don't believe in that prosperity stuff." It's in the Bible. "Well, people got greedy with it." Well, that's true, but you don't throw the baby out with the bath water. If poverty is so wonderful, how come Jesus left? He ain't poor no more! He ain't walkin' on no asphalt streets. I'm telling you, He's on gold streets. God! God, I'm walkin' on gold streets. There gonna be some people get up there and go "oh, Lord, no, I can't walk on that! Oh, Lord! Oh, Jesus, Lord! Put gravel on there, Lord." He gonna say "Shut up, fool! Walk on the street. What you think I built it for?" To Him it's something that you walk under it. He wears this nice clothing. He ain't no problem with that. You can't impress God with your wealth on your best day. See, I am believing for things that are impossible. And you know, everything I've ever done's been impossible, and it became possible just by walking in faith with it. I've had many people say, you can't believe like that! Well, bless God, watch me! What faith will do for one man, faith will do for another. Watch me! You watch me and this Mr. Cessna man here, I'll be the first preacher to buy a brand new, spankin' new, brand new jet that will fire all over this world. Get that sucker out of that glass hanger!...You can say all you want, Jack. I'll fly by your house and tip the wing. I'm gonna get something for Jesus. I'm gonna do something for God."

Jesse Duplantis (Jesse Duplantis Show, Trinity Broadcasting Network, October 8, 1997)

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The importance of earthly riches

”I will not fight the devil, I will walk on him.” Dirt diggin days are over spring up, increase.” “Even the smallest amount of faith is enough to kick the Devils brains out”

Jesse Duplantis (to his congregation Nov.29, 2000)

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Results of lack of faith

"The very first thing on Jesus` agenda was to get rid of poverty! Would you like to know why some people, including ministries, never get out of poverty? Its not because they aren’t smart. Its not because they don’t have windows of opportunity. Its because they’re not anointed. If you’re not anointed, poverty will follow you all the days of your life. His first objective was to get rid of poverty".

Jesse Duplantis (Nov. 1997 Voice of the Covenant magazine, p.5 )

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I have met and/or spoken to Jesus

“Jesus was taller than I thought He would be. I would guess Him to be from five feet eleven inches to six feet one inch. I thought at first His hair was white; but when He turned His head, I caught a glance and saw that it was light brown. When He looked at me, the glory of God was emanating from Him.I said, “Jesus!” He said simply, “Do you like this place?” I said, “Yes, Sir”

Jesse Duplantis (Heaven: Close Encounters of the God Kind. p.89)

Donny Short

12-07-2003, 12:26 AM

Kenneth Hagin Jr.

Trademark: Hagin is the head of Rhema - the Word of Faith school where people can learn to be gods.

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Jesus was infected/injected with satan's sin nature in order for redemption to work

"The 22nd Psalm gives a graphic picture of the crucifixion of Jesus-more vivid than that of John, Matthew or Mark who witnessed it. He utters the strange words "But thou are holy." What does that mean? He is becoming sin. . . . His parched lips cry, "I am a worm and no man." He is spiritually dead-the worm. Jesus died of a ruptured heart. When it happened, blood from all parts of His body poured through the rent into the sack which holds the heart. As the body cooled, the red corpuscles coagulated and rose to the top, the white serum settled to the bottom. When that Roman spear pierced the sack, water poured out first, then the coagulated blood oozed out, rolling down his side onto the ground. John bore witness of it."

Kenneth Hagin, Jr. ("Christ our Substitute", The Word of Faith [March 1975]), pp. 1,4,5,7)

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The cross wasn't enough, Jesus redeemed us in hell

"Christ's physical death on the cross was not enough to save us."

Kenneth Hagin, Jr. (How Jesus obtained His Name, Tape 44H01)

"Here is a picture of Christ in awful combat with the hosts of darkness. It gives us a glimpse of the tremendous victory He won before He rose from the dead. The margin of King James reads, "He put off from Himself the principalities and the powers." It is quite obvious and evident that whole demon hosts, when they had Jesus within their power intended to swamp Him, to overwhelm Him, and to hold Him in fearful bondage. But the cry came forth from the throne of God that Jesus had met the demands of Justice, that that man's redemption was a fact. And when that cry reached the dark regions, Jesus arose and threw back the host of demons and met Satan in awful combat. God has made this investment for He has made this deposit on which the church has a right to draw for. Oh that our eyes would open, that our souls would dare to rise in the realm of the omnipotent where that name would mean to us all that God the Father intended it to mean! In one sense, this is practically unexplored table land in Christian experience."

Kenneth Hagin, Jr. ("The Name Of Jesus: The More Excellent Name," The Word of Faith [April 1976], pp. 4-6)

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Jesus died spiritually

"Jesus tasted spiritual death."

Kenneth Hagin, Jr. (How Jesus obtained His Name, Tape 44H01)

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Jesus was the first born again man

"Why did He need to be begotten or born? Because He became like we were - separated from God. Because He tasted spiritual death for every man. And His spirit and inner men went to hell in my place. Can't you see that? Physical death wouldn't remove your sins. He's tasted death for every man. He's talking about tasting spiritual death. Jesus is the first person that was ever born again. Why did His spirit need to be born again? Because it was estranged from God."

Kenneth Hagin, Jr. ("How Jesus obtained His Name" audio tape #44-H01)

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These men think they're Gods!

"[Man] was created on terms of equality with God, and he could stand in God's presence without any consciousness of inferiority...God made us as much like Himself as possible...He made us the same class of being that He is Himself...Man lived in the realm of God. He lived on terms equal with God...[The] believer is called Christ...That's who we are; we're Christ"

Kenneth Hagin, Jr. (Zoe: The God-Kind of Life, 1989. pp. 35-36, 41)

"You are as much the incarnation of God as Jesus Christ was...the believer is as much an incarnation as was Jesus of Nazareth".

Kenneth Hagin, Jr. (Word Of Faith December 1980, p. 14)

“Adam was the god of this world.”

Kenneth Hagin, Jr. (The Believer's Authority, 2d ed. 1991, p.19)

"Man is a spirit who possesses a soul and lives in a body...., He is in the same class with God. ...We know that God is a Spirit. And yet [He] took upon Himself a man's body....when God took upon Himself human form, He was no less God than when He didn't have a body. Man, at physical death, leaves his as he was when he had his body."

Kenneth Hagin, Jr. (Man of Three Dimensions 1973)

"We (the church) are Christ."

Kenneth Hagin, Jr. (As Christ is -- So are we, Tape #44H06)

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The importance of earthly riches

"He wants His children to eat the best, He wants them to wear the best clothing, He wants them to drive the best cars, and He wants them to have the best of everything."

Kenneth Hagin, Jr. (Quoted by D.L. McConnell, A Different Gospel p.175)

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The faith force

"God's method of physical healing is spiritual. It is not mental as Christian Science, Unity and other metaphysical teachers claim. Neither is it physical as the medical world teaches. When man heals, he must do it either through the mind or through the physical body. When God heals He heals through the human spirit, Life's greatest forces are spiritual forces. . . . Love and hate, faith and fear, joy and peace, are all of the spirit."

Kenneth Hagin, Jr. ("Spirit, Soul, & Body; Part Three: God Heals through the Spirit of Man," Word of Faith [December 1977], p.5)

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I have met and/or spoken to Jesus

In "How to Write Your Own Ticket with God", Hagin sees a vision of Jesus, and says to Him, "Dear Lord, I have two sermons I preach concerning the woman who touched Your clothes and was healed when You were on earth. I received both of these sermons by inspiration." Later, Hagin quotes what Jesus told him in reply: "You are correct. My Spirit, the Holy Spirit, has endeavored to get another sermon into your spirit, but you have failed to pick it up. While I am here, I will do as you ask. I will give you that sermon outline. Now get your pencil and paper and write it down." Hagin claims to have received numerous visions, as well as eight personal visitations from Jesus. Hagin has written, "The Lord Himself taught me about prosperity. I never read about it in a book. I got it directly from heaven"
Note: Hagin also claims that he knows that Paul wrote Hebrews because Jesus appeared to him (Hagin) and told him so

Kenneth Hagin, Jr. (How God Taught Me About Prosperity, Tulsa: Faith Library, 1985)

Hagin claims that of the eight times Jesus has appeared to him, seven times Jesus was barefoot; the other time Jesus was wearing Roman sandals, and came into Hagin's room, sat down by his bedside, and talked with him for about 30 minutes. During that time, Jesus allegedly taught Hagin how to be led by the inner witness of the Holy Spirit. Hagin describes Jesus as 5'11" tall and weighing about 180 pounds. This is of course impossible (cf. 2 Cor. 5:16).

Kenneth Hagin, Jr. (Kenneth Hagin, Christian News, p. 12 March 4, 1986)

Donny Short

12-07-2003, 12:27 AM

Marilyn Hickey

Trademark: Hickey is the lead "trinkets and gadgets" queen. She believes that these various objects carry special powers when blessed by her, for a donation of course.

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The power of the prayer cloth

(Prayer cloths) “…carry or contain any special anointing or qualities. It is just a simple piece of plain cloth…but in a few days (if you act in faith RIGHT NOW) it can become a MIRACLE PRAYER CLOTH.” “Receiving follows giving.”

Marilyn Hickey ()

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The importance of earthly riches

"What do you need? Start creating it. Start speaking about it. Start speaking it into being. Speak to your billfold. Say, "You big, thick billfold full of money." Speak to your checkbook. Say, "You, checkbook, you. You've never been so prosperous since I owned you. You're just jammed full of money."

Marilyn Hickey (Claim Your Miracles audiotape #186, side 2)

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Health is yours for the claiming

"Say to your body, 'You're whole, body! Why, you just function so beautifully and so well. Why, body, you never have any problems. You're a strong, healthy body.' Or speak to your leg, or speak to your foot, or speak to your neck, or speak to your back; and once you have spoken and believe that you have received, and don't go back on it. Speak to your wife, speak to your husband, speak to your circumstances; and speak faith to them to create in them and God will create what you are speaking."

Marilyn Hickey (Claim Your Miracles audiotape, #186, side 2)

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Demons

"There is demonic activity and oppression in the physical body. If you have suffered with chronic sickness for years or you have hereditary illness in your body, it's the work of demons. Physical infirmities such as allergies, arthritis, cancer, tumors, blindness, deafness, epilepsy, asthma, migraine, paralysis, often are caused by demon spirits. People that are restless and cannot sleep, I tell you, those are demon spirits, because even Matthew 12 tells you when demons are cast out, how they walk around looking for something. They're restless. It said the wicked are restless. Why are the wicked restless? Because they're driven, driven by demonic spirits. See, the Holy Spirit never drives you. He leads you. Demons drive you, and so that's demonic activity "

Marilyn Hickey (Marilyn Hickey Show, October 1, 1998)

Donny Short

12-07-2003, 12:30 AM

Rodney Howard Browne

Trademark: Howard-Browne is the founder of the Toronto Blessing, laughter revival and refers to himself as the Holy Spirit Bartender.

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The Anointing

"Either You come down here and touch me, or I will come up there and touch You" (The prayer Howard-Browne prayed before he got the "anointing")

Rodney Howard-Browne (Citing Rodney Howard-Browne, Holy Laughter, Albert James Dager, 1996)

"It felt like my fingertips came off. I felt a full volume of the anointing flow out of my hand. The only way I can explain it is to liken it to a fireman holding a fire hose with a full volume of water flowing out of it. The anointing went right into her. It looked like someone had hit her in the head with an invisible baseball bat and she fell to the floor."

Rodney Howard-Browne (Touch Of God, 76)

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Above Reproach - testing their spirits

"Those who criticize me are idiots. They are about to experience either riot or revival"

Rodney Howard-Browne (16 January 1995, meeting at Melodyland Christian Center, Anaheim, CA)

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Holy Ghost Bartender/Holy Laughter

"Stop praying now and let the joy bubble out your belly. Joy. Joy. Joy. Don't pray! Laugh!"

Rodney Howard-Browne (Citing Rodney Howard-Browne, Holy Laughter, Albert James Dager, 1996)

"Take another drink...the bar is open....Be filled! We loose the power! Have another drink!"

Rodney Howard-Browne (Ed Tarkowski quoting Rodney Howard-Browne, 1994)

"Drink and get drunk on the "new wine of the Spirit."

Rodney Howard-Browne (Citing Rodney Howard-Browne, The Toronto Curse, Sydney Allen Hunter, 1996)

"I'm just the Holy Ghost bartender," he informed us. "I just serve the new wine and tell them to come drink." Howard-Browne then began pumping us up to do just that. He led us in a song with these words: "I am drunk, I am drunk. Every day of my life I am drunk. I've been drinking down at Joel's place every night and every day. I am drunk on the new wine." Then he asked us all to lift our hands and "let that river of joy come out of your belly."

Rodney Howard-Browne (Citing Rodney Howard Browne in "An Evening with Rodney Howard-Browne" (from the Newswatch column of the Christian Research Journal, Winter 1995, page 43) by Julia Duin)

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Rejoice in satanic manifestations

"I'd rather be in a church where the devil and the flesh are manifesting than in a church where nothing is happening because people are too afraid to manifest anything... and if the devil manifests, don't worry about that, either. Rejoice, because at least something is happening."

Rodney Howard-Browne (The Coming Revival. 1991, p.6)

"'One night I was preaching on hell, and [laughter] just hit the whole place. The more I told people what hell was like, the more they laughed'"

Rodney Howard-Browne (Charisma, August 1994, pg. 24)

Donny Short

12-07-2003, 12:32 AM

Rick Joyner

Trademark: Joyner is a self proclaimed prophet that excuses his false prophesies by claiming that one must only be accurate 66% of the time when speaking in the name of the Lord. He is a gnostic and teaches on self-empowerment and Latter Rain.

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The Anointing

[Rick Joyner on the subject of the latter-day apostles and prophets who will be greater than the apostles and prophets of Biblical times:] "In the near future we will not be looking back at the early church with envy because of the great exploits of those days, but all will be saying that He certainly did save His best wine for last. The most glorious times in all of history have not come upon us. You, who have dreamed of one day being able to talk with Peter, John and Paul, are going to be surprised to find that they have all been waiting to talk to you."

Rick Joyner (The Harvest, MorningStar, 1990, 9)

"Like the American Civil War, the coming spiritual civil war will also be between the Blue and the Gray. In dreams and visions blue often represents heavenly mindedness - the sky is blue - and gray speaks of those who live by the power of their own minds - the brain is often called gray matter - this will be a conflict between those who may be genuine Christians, but who live mostly according to their natural minds and human wisdom, and those who follow the Holy Spirit."

Rick Joyner (The Morning Star Prophetic Bulletin, May 1996, 2)

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The Second Coming is spiritual, not physical

"The doctrine of the rapture was a great and effective ruse of the enemy to implant in the church a retreat mentality, but it will not succeed. Already this yoke has been cast off by the majority in the advancing church and it will soon be cast off by all..."

Rick Joyner (The Harvest, 1989/1990 revised booklet p.121)

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Sensual manifestations

"There will also be some new wonders coming to the church. We had some of these just recently where Bob Jones and I heard angels singing twice in a meeting. This didn't even take any faith, it was so loud and so clear, it was like a choir singing. Another time, we had the odor of incense fill a meeting for about 15 minutes. It was so intense that you couldn't help but smell it...He gave it as a witness that He was receiving the intercession from these people, the prayers and their intercession. He had said He would come with a sign that we would smell the incense. It came so powerfully faith was hardly needed. And we saw the wind of the Spirit blow so hard at a meeting you could see people's hair blowing! So He is coming a whole lot more dramatically. As one brother said, 'This hardly takes any faith, it is so obvious.' But when He comes in ways like that, it is always to give a message.

He is not just trying to tickle our curiosity or our interest in supernatural things, He is trying to say something to us." What I believe is very important to note here is the conditioning being used to make people more attuned to sensual manifestations than the Word of God. Note that Joyner ends this paragraph by saying that "He (God) is trying to say something to us." God has spoken already through His Son and through the Word of God, He doesn't need to give you scents of honeysuckle to let people know He heard their prayers. He wants us to come by faith.

Rick Joyner (Faith Hardly Needed From Fullness, Jan/Feb 1990 "The Unfolding of a Prophet." Page 13)

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Above Reproach - testing their spirits

Rick Joyner has identified "Antichrist" as the orthodox church.

Rick Joyner (Weighed and Found Wanting, Bill Randles, p. 64. )

"... there will be many 'stumbling blocks' circulating in the church ... . Those serving in leadership must trust their discernment and remove the 'stumbling blocks'."

Rick Joyner (The Prophetic Ministry, The Morning Star Prophetic Newsletter, Vol 3, No. 2, pg. 4)

Even if one takes the liberty to judge the prophet and his message, you are labeled a ''pharisee,'' or worse yet possess a ''religious'' and ''Jezebel spirit.'' PFO director Steve Cannon points out a recurrent theme is Joyner's writings, a concept called ''The Two Ministries.'' Joyner describes the second of the two ministries as ''faultfinders'' and says they are a destructive force.'' Cannon maintains, ''This doctrine ... is used, I think, to intimidate any who may criticize, into thinking that by doing so, they are operating under the spirit of Satan.''

Rick Joyner (The Higher Life of Rick Joyner: Chasing the Delusion of Power and Dominion, The Quarterly Journal, October-December 2000, page 6)

"We must be vigilant and able to quickly recognize the enemy, but not be too quick to call someone the enemy until we are sure of what we see. A friend of mine who was a close associate of Jack Coe, one of the greatest of the healing evangelists, told me how he died quickly and unexpectedly at the age of just 39 after publicly referring to Kathryn Kuhlman as a witch. Years later, Kuhlman died quickly and unexpectedly after publicly calling Bob Mumford a false teacher. Were these the judgments of God? I believe both of these died because of the mercy of the Lord, to keep them from crossing the line to becoming a stumbling block, something the Lord Himself warned should be the last thing we ever want to become." Note: This is used as an illustration by Joyner of someone calling someone else a false prophet and dying as a result of it.

Rick Joyner (False Prophets and False Prophesy, The Morning Star Journal, vol. 6 #4)

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Ecumenicalism

"From the first Day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit has proven that He will only come to the degree that we have unity."

Rick Joyner ("Azusa Street - The Fire That Could Not Die", The Morning Star Journal, Volume 7, Number 1)

"At the height of the Azusa Street revival Seymour prophesied, "We are on the verge of the greatest miracle the world has ever seen." The miracle he was referring to was a true love and unity between races and creeds that he considered to be fundamental Christianity. When it does, William J. Seymour must be considered as one who sowed the seeds for this greatest miracle of all. Possibly more than any other man in church history, he promoted that which alone can bring it to pass, seeking the fulness of the Holy Spirit in our midst."

Rick Joyner ("Azusa Street - The Fire That Could Not Die", The Morning Star Journal, Volume 7, Number 1)

"During the initial stages of the harvest there will be a great reaping among the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Seventh-Day Adventists, and other sects in which there is a doctrinal mixture. Most of these will be won by love, not truth. Some of these will become great teachers, having come to love the truth with an unquenchable zeal because of their previous delusions and bondage. Other will become tireless, faithful laborers for the harvest. The whole body of Christ will be blessed by those who come from these groups. Some will need a lot of ministry and teaching, but this effort on their behalf will pay great dividends for the kingdom, just as it did with the Pharisee of Pharisees, Paul, who became the uncompromising apostle of grace."

Rick Joyner (The Harvest)

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False Prophesies

"One of the greatest hazards affecting maturing prophets is the erroneous interpretation of the Old Testament exhortation that if a prophet ever predicted something which did not come to pass he was no longer to be considered a true prophet (see Deut. 18:20-22). The warning was that if this happened, the prophet had been presumptuous and the people were not to fear him. If one predicts something in the name of the Lord and it does not come to pass, he probably has spoken presumptuously and needs to be repented of, but that does not make him a false prophet. No one could step out in the faith required to walk in his calling if he knew that a single mistake would ruin him for life."

Rick Joyner (The Prophetic Ministry, The Morning Star Prophetic Newsletter, Vol 3, No. 2, pg. 2)

"Bob [Jones] was told that the general level of prophetic revelation in the church was about 65% accurate at this time. Some are only about 10% accurate, a very few of the most mature prophets are approaching 85% to 95% accuracy. Prophecy is increasing in purity, but there is still a long way to go for those who walk in this ministry. This is actually grace for the church now, because 100% accuracy in this ministry will bring a level of accountability to the church which she is too immature to bear at this time; it would result in too many 'Ananias and Sapphiras.' That so many the (sic) prophetic ministries are still missing so much is also meant to work humility and wisdom in them so that they will be able to handle the authority and power coming in the near future." Note: This interpretation is very convenient for Joyner. First of all, to my knowledge, Rick Joyner has never repented of any of his false prophesies... er, "mistakes" he has made. Furthermore, by his interpretation, there can be no such thing as a false prophet at all, since he has just stripped away one of the main ways to discern false prophesy. Either a prophet is telling the truth or he is lying, a false prophet. Simple.

Rick Joyner (The Prophetic Ministry, The Morning Star Prophetic Newsletter, Vol 3, No. 2, pg. 4)

Donny Short

12-07-2003, 12:35 AM

Joyce Meyer

Trademark: Meyer is well known for her claims of being able to live a sinfree life. She parrots the atonement atrocities authored by Kenneth Copeland.

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The cross wasn't enough, Jesus redeemed us in hell

“And you’ve got to really glean some things out of the Word of God to really get hold of what He [Jesus] did for you during those three days. Jesus said, ‘It is finished.’ And He meant the Old Covenant. The job He had to do was just getting started. He really did the job the three days and nights that He was in hell. That’s where the job was done.”

Joyce Meyer (“What Happened from the Cross to The Throne?” audio)

“He was pronounced guilty on the cross but He paid the price in hell.”

Joyce Meyer (“What Happened from the Cross to The Throne?” audio)

“There is no hope of anyone going to heaven unless they believe this truth I am presenting. You cannot go to heaven unless you believe with all your heart that Jesus took your place in hell”

Joyce Meyer ("The Most Important Decision You Will Ever Make", 1991 pg. 3)

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Jesus was the first born again man

“God rose up from His throne and said to demon powers tormenting the sinless Son of God, ‘Let Him go.’ Then the resurrection power of Almighty God went through hell and filled Jesus ... He was resurrected from the dead — the first born-again man”

Joyce Meyer ("The Most Important Decision You Will Ever Make", 1991 pg. 36)

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Above Reproach - testing their spirits

“The Bible can’t even find any way to explain this. Not really. That’s why you’ve got to get it by revelation. There are no words to explain what I’m telling you. I’ve got to just trust God that He’s putting it into your spirit like He put it into mine.”

Joyce Meyer (“What Happened from the Cross to The Throne?” audio)

Meyer says “that the changed lives are proof enough,” that she’s “anointed by God to do what I’m doing.”

Joyce Meyer (Charisma, pg. 55)

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I'm sinfree!

“I’m going to tell you something folks, I didn’t stop sinning until I finally got it through my thick head I wasn’t a sinner anymore. And the religious world thinks that’s heresy and they want to hang you for it. But the Bible says that I’m righteous and I can’t be righteous and be a sinner at the same time ... All I was ever taught to say was, ‘I’m a poor, miserable sinner.’ I am not poor, I am not miserable and I am not a sinner. That is a lie from the pit of hell. That is what I was and if I still am then Jesus died in vain. Amen?”

Joyce Meyer (“What Happened from the Cross to The Throne?” audio)

“I might as well go and smack Him right in the face if I’m going to go around and feel guilty and condemned. Every time you feel guilty and condemned it’s just like slapping Him in the face and saying, ‘You didn’t do a good job. You didn’t do a complete job. I’m an old rotten this and I’m an old rotten that.”

Joyce Meyer (“What Happened from the Cross to The Throne?” audio)

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Angels tell me what to say

"Now spirits don't have bodies, so we can't see them. Okay? There probably is, I believe there is, and I certainly hope there is several angels up here this morning that are preaching with me. I believe that right before I speak some anointed statement to you, that one of them bends over and says in my ear what I'm supposed to say to you."

Joyce Meyer (Witchcraft & Related Spirits (Part 1) - 2 A-27 Audiotape)

Donny Short

12-07-2003, 12:37 AM

Rod Parsley

Trademark: Known as the "raging prophet", Parsley is in the forefront of the prosperity gospel teachers.

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Jesus was infected/injected with satan's sin nature in order for redemption to work

"Then, without warning, there came the sudden thud of a hammer. The nails that pounded into Christ’s hands and feet that day ‘injected’ Him with every blatant iniquity, every subtle sin, every vile act that mankind had ever or would ever commit....Hanging from those nails, Jesus was also deliberately infected with all manner of sickness and sin, so to bring about salvation and healing, through His divine, immunized blood."

Rod Parsley (The Backside Of Calvary, Results Publishing, Columbus, OH, 1991, p. 46)

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Gimme money!

‘I just love to talk about your money. Let me be very clear — I want your money. I deserve it. This church deserves it."

Rod Parsley (An Empire of Souls, pg. 35)

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The power of the prayer cloth

"I believe this is your time to receive the tangible transfer of God's miracle-working power, and I want to encourage every one of my Breakthrough Partners and friends to send a prayer cloth along with your prayer needs to be prayed over. When I return your prayer cloth to you, I believe the tangible transfer of God's creative power will flow into your life and birth your miracle! I believe God, Himself, will anoint you to reap a mighty harvest of your physical, spiritual and financial needs..."

Rod Parsley (World Harvest Church Website: Birthing Your Miracle,” 7/14/99)

"Every year we receive testimony after testimony of glorious healings, deliverances and salvations as a result of these super-saturated scraps of cloth we receive from around the world. Don't miss this opportunity to receive the tangible transfer of God's anointing into your life.”

Rod Parsley (World Harvest Church Website: Birthing Your Miracle,” 7/14/99)

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The 100 fold theory

“People have said that it’s selfish to ask God to give a hundredfold return on the seeds sown in the financial realm. No it’s selfish not to expect the hundredfold return. ... The anointing is on the seed. If you will divest, God will invest.”

Rod Parsley (God’s Answer to Insufficient Funds, 1992 pps 56-57)

“I'm talkin about your money you know one of the greatest things that is going to happen in the year 2,000 were about to see the church rise up with a revelation that only this generation has ever been given of God’s word concerning high finances in the kingdom of God and we are just about to see the greatest transfer of wealth out of the hand of the wicked into the hand of the just.”

Rod Parsley (Breakthrough Jan.7, 2000)

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The importance of earthly riches

“For you to sit in physical bondage is to deny the power of the gospel. ... Most people would have no trouble shouting whatsoever if I said, ‘To remain in the bondage of sin and death is to deny the power of the gospel.’ If I said the same thing about poverty and financial bondage, it would get as quiet as a tomb. If I said that for you to live from paycheck to paycheck is to deny the power of the gospel, many of you would get angry. In Luke 4:18 ... Notice there was an anointing to preach good news to the poor. A lot of people don’t like to look at that because good news to a poor man is that he doesn’t have to be poor anymore. We have multitudes saved, delivered and filled with the Holy Ghost, and many are healed, yet over 90% of the church of Jesus Christ are living in absolute financial bondage. All the while, Jesus is saying, ‘I’ve been anointed to preach the good news to the poor.’ ... You have held back the flow. You have denied the perpetual propulsion of power that could deliver you from not only sin and sickness but from the horrible stench of poverty.”

Rod Parsley (God’s Answer to Insufficient Funds, 1992 pps 46-47)

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Health is yours for the claiming

"Salvation and healing are two gifts wrapped up in the same package. For God, healing is just as important and necessary as Salvation."

Rod Parsley (The Backside Of Calvary, Results Publishing, Columbus, OH, 1991, p. 55)

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Demons

"Nobody today wants to talk about devils. I suppose I'll have to pick up the legacy. They labeled brother Sumerall a devil-chaser. Well, that's all right. That's the same thing they labeled Hudson Taylor, the great missionary. That's the same thing they labeled Martin Luther, the leader of the great Pentecostal reformation - Protestant reformation. I don't care what you call me. I came in here tonight to set you free. I'm going to set some of you free. You don't even know you're bound. You think you just got a problem and you got a devil. You think you just got a headache and you got a devil. You think you just got a problem with your bank account and you got a devil. You think you've got a problem with your temper and you've got a devil. You think you've got a problem with depression and you've got a devil. I'm live. There ain't nothing they can do about it. It don't matter to me. I'm not here to win friends and influence people."

Rod Parsley (Praise The Lord, Dominion Camp Meeting; July 6, 1999)

Donny Short

12-07-2003, 12:39 AM

Fred Price

Trademark: Price is most well known for his Man's Self Empowerment over God and Prosperity Gospel teachings.

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The cross wasn't enough, Jesus redeemed us in hell

"Do you think that the punishment for our sin was to die on a cross? If that were the case, the two thieves could have paid your price. No, the punishment was to go into hell itself and to serve time in hell separated from God…Satan and all the demons of hell thought that they had Him bound and they threw a net over Jesus and they dragged Him down to the very pit of hell itself to serve our sentence."

Fredrick K.C. Price (Ever Increasing Faith Messenger June 1980)

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Jesus died spiritually

“Somewhere between the time He [Jesus] was nailed to the cross and when He was in the Garden of Gethsemane-somewhere in there-He died spiritually. Personally, I believe it was while He was in the garden.”

Fredrick K.C. Price (Identification #3, 1980, tape #FP545, side 1)

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Never say "Thy Will be Done"!

“What they told me to do was that whenever I prayed I should always say, 'The will of the Lord be done.,' Now, doesn't that sound humble? It does. Sounds like humility, it's really stupidity. I mean, you know, really, we insult God. I mean, we really do insult our Heavenly Father. We do; we really insult Him without even realizing it. If you have to say, 'If it be thy will or' Thy will be done'-if you have to say that, then you're calling God a fool because he's the One that told us to ask....that's an insult to God's intelligence."

Fredrick K.C. Price (Ever Increasing Faith, TBN November 16, 1990)

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The church is in control, not God

“Yes! You are in control! So, if man has control, who no longer has it? God”

Fredrick K.C. Price (“Prayer: Do You Know What Prayer Is...and How to Pray?” The Word Study Bible, 1990 p. 1178)

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God is banned from the earth until the church unleashes him/allows him in

"God can't do anything in this earth realm except what we, the body of Christ, allow Him to do."

Fredrick K.C. Price (Ever Increasing Faith, TBN May 1, 1992, audiotape #PR11)

"Adam, as I said, gave it [the earth] away to the serpent, to the Devil. As a result of it, he got his behind kicked out of the garden. He went out of Eden, out of the garden. He began to wander around, and he has troubles from day one. Now God was out of the business. God was out of the earth realm. God had no more stock in this earth realm. No more. None at all. Nothing He could do. Not a thing in the world He could do. . . .The only way God could get back into this earth realm, He had to have an invitation. Ha-hah! He had to have an invitation. And so, God looked around--saw different men, saw Noah, saw different ones. He gave them a few instructions. They did what He said. So and so and so and so. But, finally, He got to a point where He had His plan ready for operation. And He saw a man named Abraham."

Fredrick K.C. Price (Ever Increasing Faith, TBN May 1, 1992, audiotape #PR11)

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Jesus was wealthy and had an expensive ministry

"The whole point is I'm trying to get you to see--to get you out of this malaise of thinking that Jesus and the disciples were poor and then relating that to you- thinking that you, as a child of God, have to follow Jesus. The Bible says that He has left us an example that we should follow His steps. That's the reason why I drive a Rolls Royce. I'm following Jesus' steps."

Fredrick K.C. Price (Ever Increasing Faith, TBN December 9, 1990)

(the) “apostles were business men they were rich men had plenty of money, I’m going to show you that Jesus was a wealthy man had plenty of money and see all of that completely foreign to us from a traditional point of view.” “Jesus and the disciples were rich, only rich people could take off for 3.5 years.”

Fredrick K.C. Price (Ever Increasing Faith, TBN November 23, 1990)

"The Bible says that He [Jesus] had a treasurer--a treasury (they called it "the bag"); that they had one man who was the treasurer, named Judas Iscariot; and the rascal was stealing out of the bag for three-and-a-half years and nobody knew that he was stealing. You know why? Because there was so much in it, He couldn't tell. Nobody could tell that anything was missing. If He had three oranges in the bottom of the bag and he stole two of them, don't tell me He wouldn't know that some was missing. Beside that, if Jesus didn't have anything, what do you need a treasury for? A treasury is for surplus. It's not for that which you're spending. It's only for surplus--to hold it until you need to spend it. Therefore, He must have had a whole lot that needed to be held in advance that He wasn't spending. So He must have had more than He was living on."

Fredrick K.C. Price (Ever Increasing Faith, TBN November 23, 1990)

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The importance of earthly riches

“Yeah, God has pleasure in the prosperity. So he must have displeasure in the poverty. So if he does, then poverty couldn't be from God. Yeah, but Brother Price, but God allows it. God lets it happen. You're right, he does. He does, because you do. He can't do anything about it”

Fredrick K.C. Price (Ever Increasing Faith, TBN November 16, 1990)

"You can talk about me all you want while I'm driving by in my Rolls Royce that's paid for, and I got the pink slip on it. Talk all you want. Bad mouth all you want. Don't hurt me in the least. Doesn't bother me. It's a whole lot easier to be persecuted when I'm riding in my car and I got the pink slip than it is when I'm riding in a car and owe my soul to the company store."

Fredrick K.C. Price (Ever Increasing Faith, TBN March 29, 1992)

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Health is yours for the claiming

"…how can you glorify God in your body, when it doesn't function right? How can you glorify God? How can He get glory when your body doesn't even work?…What makes you think the Holy Ghost wants to live inside a body where He can't see out through the windows and He can't hear with the ears? What makes you think the Holy Spirit wants to live inside of a physical body where the limbs and the organs and the cells do not function right?"

Fredrick K.C. Price ("Is God Glorified Through Sickness?" audiotape #FP605)

“The believer should never die before the age of 70. That is the minimum and then they should live to be 120 years. This is done by faith words “If you keep talking death, that is what you are going to have. If you keep talking sickness and disease, that is what you are going to have, because you are going to create the reality of them with your own mouth. That is a divine law."

Fredrick K.C. Price (Realm, 29)

Donny Short

12-07-2003, 12:41 AM

Robert Schuller

Trademark: Once known as a leader in Christianity, Schuller dove head forward into the all-faith ecumenical Salvation by Positive Thinking movement and he hasn't looked back.

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The church is in control, not God

"One classical role of the pulpit in Protestantism has been to 'preach sermons' which imply indoctrination more than education. Within this from of communication, there is an inherent, intrinsic inclination to intimidate, manipulate, and, hence, offend the person's most prized quality of humanness -- his dignity"

Robert Schuller (Self-Esteem, p. 153)

"Classical theology has erred in its insistence that theology be 'God-centered,' not 'man-centered'"

Robert Schuller (Self-Esteem, p. 64)

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The faith force

( On New Age) "Well, I think it depends upon where you're working. I believe that the responsibility in this Age is to 'positivize' religion. Now this probably doesn't have much bearing to you people, being Unity people, you're positive. But I talk a great deal to groups that are not positive... even to what we would call Fundamentalists who deal constantly with words like sin, salvation, repentance, guilt, that sort of thing. So when I'm dealing with these people... what we have to do is positivize the words that have classically only had a negative interpretation."

Robert Schuller (from an address at Unity Village, Unity tape)

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Sensual manifestations

" The most effective mantras employ the "M" sound. You can get the feel of it by repeating the words, "I am, I am," many times over.... Transendental Meditation or TM... is not a religion nor is it necessarily anti-Christian."

Robert Schuller (Peace of Mind Through Possibility Thinking, pp. 131-32)

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Visual empowerment

"Historical theology has too often failed to interpret repentance as a positive creative force. ... Essentially, if Christianity is to succeed in the next millennium, it must cease to be a negative religion and must become positive"

Robert Schuller (Self-Esteem, p. 104)

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Above Reproach - testing their spirits

"The tragedy of Christendom today is the existence of entire congregations of church members who are dominated by emotionally deprived or emotionally under-developed persons. These congregations have been accurately labeled 'God's Frozen People.' ... And they do this by exercising narrow authoritarianism in doctrines and practices and by sowing seeds of suspicion and dissension in the religious community. ... By contrast, strong persons -- self-assured personalities, whose egos find their nourishment in a self-esteem-generating personal relationship with Jesus Christ -- dare to face contrary opinions, diverse interpretations, and deviations of theology without becoming disrespectful, judgmental, or accusatory"

Robert Schuller (Self-Esteem p. 154)

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Salvation

"I don't think anything has been done in the name of Christ and under the banner of Christianity that has proven more destructive to human personality and, hence, counterproductive to the evangelism enterprise than the often crude, uncouth, and unchristian strategy of attempting to make people aware of their lost and sinful condition."

Robert Schuller (Time, March 18, 1985)

"The classical interpretation of this teaching of Christ on 'bearing our cross' desperately needs reformation....The cross Christ calls us to bear will be offered as a dream... an inspiring idea that would incarnate itself in a form of ministry that helps the self-esteem-impoverished persons to discover their self-worth through salvation and subsequent social service in our Savior's name...So the proclamation of possibility thinking is the positive proclamation of the cross!...Christ was the world's greatest possibility thinker. Do we dare follow him?"

Robert Schuller (Self-Esteem, pp. 22, 117-19)

"The classical error of historical Christianity is that we have never started with the value of the person. Rather, we have started from the 'unworthiness of the sinner,' and that starting point has set the stage for the glorification of human shame in Christian theology"

Robert Schuller (Self-Esteem p. 162)

"What we need is a theology of salvation that begins and ends with a recognition of every person's hunger for glory"

Robert Schuller (Self-Esteem, pp. 26-27)

"To be born again means that we must be changed from a negative to a positive self-image -- from inferiority to self-esteem, from fear to love, from doubt to trust"

Robert Schuller (Self-Esteem, p. 68)

"The Cross sanctifies the ego trip. For the Cross protected our Lord's perfect self-esteem from turning into sinful pride"

Robert Schuller (Self-Esteem, p. 75)

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Ecumenicalism

"I found myself immediately attracted to Pope John Paul II when, upon his election to the Papacy, his published speeches invariably called attention to the need for recognizing the dignity of the human being as a child of God"

Robert Schuller (Self-Esteem, p. 17)

Robert Schuller's Crystal Cathedral houses CAMP, Christians and Muslims for Peace (www.campintl.com) remarked to Imam Alfred Mohammed of the Muslim American Society that "if he [Schuller] came back in 100 years and found his descendants Muslims, it wouldn't bother him...."

Robert Schuller ()

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I'm sinfree!

"... the core of sin is a lack of self-esteem. ... Sin is psychological self-abuse. ... the most serious sin is one that causes me to say, 'I am unworthy. I may have no claim to divine sonship if you examine me at my worst.' For once a person believes he is an 'unworthy sinner,' it is doubtful if he can really honestly accept the saving grace God offers in Jesus Christ"

Robert Schuller (Self-Esteem pp. 98-99)

Donny Short

12-07-2003, 12:44 AM

Kenneth Copeland part 1.

Trademark: While Copeland is the father of the atonement atrocities like Jesus being the first born again man, his blasphemous doctrines seem limitless. His big promotion is that we are on equal footing with the Lord.

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Jesus was infected/injected with satan's sin nature in order for redemption to work

"He [Jesus] is suffering all that there is to suffer. There is no suffering left apart from Him. His emaciated, poured out, little, wormy spirit is down in the bottom of that thing [hell]. And the Devil thinks he's got Him destroyed."

Kenneth Copeland (Believer's Voice of Victory program, April 21, 1991)

“The righteousness of God was made to be sin. He accepted the sin nature of Satan in His own spirit. And at the moment that He did so, He cried, ‘My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me?’ You don’t know what happened at the cross. Why do you think Moses, upon instruction of God, raised the serpent upon that pole instead of a lamb? That used to bug me. I said, ‘Why in the world would you want to put a snake up there—the sign of Satan? Why didn’t you put a lamb on that pole?’ And the Lord said, ‘Because it was a sign of Satan that was hanging on the cross.’ He said, ‘I accepted, in My own spirit, spiritual death; and the light was turned off.”

Kenneth Copeland (What Happened from the Cross to the Throne, 1990, audiotape #02-0017, side 2)

Jesus "put Himself into the hands of Satan when He went to that cross, and took that same nature that Adam did [when he sinned]."

Kenneth Copeland (The Incarnation, 1985, audiotape #01-0402, side 1)

Jesus is said to have remarked, "It was a sign of Satan that was hanging on the cross....I accepted, in my own spirit, spiritual death; and the light was turned off."

Kenneth Copeland (What Happened from the Cross to the Throne, 1990, audiotape #02-0017, side 2)

[Jesus] "had to give up His righteousness"

Kenneth Copeland (The Incarnation, 1985, audiotape #01-0402, side 2)

"How did Jesus then on the cross say, ‘My God.’ Because God was not His Father any more. He took upon Himself the nature of Satan. And I’m telling you Jesus is in the middle of that pit. He’s suffering all that there is to suffer, there is no suffering left . . . apart from Him. His emaciated, little wormy spirit is down in the bottom of that thing and the devil thinks He’s got Him destroyed. But, all of a sudden God started talking."

Kenneth Copeland (Believer's Voice of Victory, TBN, April 21, 1991)

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The cross wasn't enough, Jesus redeemed us in hell

"When Jesus cried, 'It is finished!' He was not speaking of the plan of redemption. There were still three days and nights to go through before He went to the throne...Jesus' death on the cross was only the beginning of the complete work of redemption."

Kenneth Copeland (Jesus - Our Lord of Glory, Believer's Voice of Victory Magazine 10, 4; April 1982, p. 3)

"Satan conquered Jesus on the Cross and took His spirit to the dark regions of hell"

Kenneth Copeland (Holy Bible: Kenneth Copeland Reference Edition, 1991, p.129)

"He [Jesus] allowed the devil to drag Him into the depths of hell....He allowed Himself to come under Satan's control...every demon in hell came down on Him to annihilate Him....They tortured Him beyond anything anybody had ever conceived. For three days He suffered everything there is to suffer."

Kenneth Copeland (The Price of It All, 3)

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Jesus died spiritually

"Jesus had to go through that same spiritual death in order to pay the price. Now it wasn't the physical death on the cross that paid the price for sin, because if it had of been any prophet of God that had died for the last couple of thousand years before that could have paid that price. It wasn't physical death anybody could do that."

Kenneth Copeland (What Satan Saw on the Day of Pentecost, audio tape #020022)

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Jesus was the first born again man

"He allowed the devil to drag Him into the depths of hell as if He were the most wicked sinner who ever lived ... Every demon in hell came down on Him to annihilate Him ... [They] tortured Him beyond anything that anybody has ever conceived ... In a thunder of spiritual force, the voice of God spoke to the death-whipped, broken, punished spirit of Jesus ... [in] the pit of destruction, and charged the spirit of Jesus with resurrection power! Suddenly His twisted, death-wracked spirit began to fill out and come back to life ... He was literally being reborn before the devil's very eyes. He began to flex His spiritual muscles ... Jesus Christ dragged Satan up and down the halls of hell ... Jesus ... was raised up a born-again man ... The day I realized that a born-again man had defeated Satan, hell, and death, I got so excited ... !"

Kenneth Copeland ("The Price of it All," Believer’s Voice of Victory, September 1991, p. 4)

“In hell He [Jesus] suffered for you and for me. The Bible says hell was made for Satan and his angels. It was not made for men. Satan was holding the Son of God there illegally … The trap was set for Satan and Jesus was the bait.”

Kenneth Copeland (Walking in the Realm of the Miraculous, 1979, p. 77)

"The Spirit of God spoke to me and He said, 'Son, realize this. Now follow me in this and don't let your tradition trip you up.' He said, 'Think this way - a twice-born man whipped Satan in his own domain.' And I threw my Bible down...like that. I said, 'What?' He said, 'A born-again man defeated Satan, the firstborn of many brethren defeated him.' He said, 'You are the very image, the very copy of that one.' I said, 'Goodness, gracious sakes alive!' And I began to see what had gone on in there, and I said, 'Well now you don't mean, you couldn't dare mean, that I could have done the same thing?' He said, 'Oh yeah, if you'd had the knowledge of the Word of God that He did, you could have done the same thing, 'cause you're a reborn man too."

Kenneth Copeland (Substitution and Identification, tape #00-0202, side 2)

“…that Word of the Living God went down into that pit of destruction and charges the spirit of Jesus with resurrection power! Suddenly, His twisted, death-wracked spirit began to fill out and come back to life. He began to look like something the devil has never seen before. He was literally being reborn before the devil’s very eyes. He began to flex his spiritual muscles…Jesus was born again – the firstborn from the dead."

Kenneth Copeland (The Price of it All, Believer’s Voice in Victory, vol 19 September 1991, p.9)

“He [Jesus] was down in that pit and there he suffered the punishment for three horrible days and nights for Adam’s treason ... There is a new birth takes place in the very depths of the earth, when the command of God says ‘That’s enough, loose him and let him go’.”

Kenneth Copeland (What Happened from the Cross to the Throne, 1990, audiotape #02-0017, side 2)

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Anyone could have redeemed us

"It wasn't a physical death on the cross that paid the price for sin...anybody can do that."

Kenneth Copeland (What Satan Saw on the Day of Pentecost, audiotape #BCC-19, side 1)

“Every prophet that walked the face of the earth under the Abrahamic covenant could have paid the price if it were a physical death only” “When He said ‘It is finished’ on that cross, He was not speaking of the plan of redemption. The plan of redemption had just begun; there were still three days and three nights to be gone through.”

Kenneth Copeland (What Happened from the Cross to the Throne, 1990, audiotape #02-0017, side 2)

“The Spirit of God spoke to me and He said, ‘Son, realize this. Now follow me in this and don’t let your tradition trip you up.’ He said, ‘Think this way—a twice-born man whipped Satan in his own domain.’ And I threw my Bible down … like that. I said, ‘What?’ He said, ‘A born-again man defeated Satan, the firstborn of many brethren defeated him.’ He said, ‘You are the very image, the very copy of that one.’ I said, ‘Well now you don’t mean, you couldn’t dare mean, that I could have done the same thing?’ He said, ‘Oh yeah, if you’d had the knowledge of the Word of God that He did, you could’ve done the same thing, ‘cause you’re a reborn man too.”

Kenneth Copeland (Substitution and Identification, 1989, tape #00-0202, side 2)

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The church is in control, not God

“As a believer, you have a right to make commands in the name of Jesus. Each time you stand on the Word, you are commanding God to a certain extent because it is His Word.”

Kenneth Copeland (Our Covenant with God, 1987, p. 32)

Donny Short

12-07-2003, 12:47 AM

Kenneth Copeland part 2

God is banned from the earth until the church unleashes him/allows him in

“God’s on the outside looking in. He doesn’t have any legal entree into the earth. The thing don’t belong to Him. You see how sassy the Devil was in the presence of God in the book of Job? God said, ‘Where have you been?’ Wasn’t any of God’s business. He [Satan] didn’t even have to answer if he didn’t want to ... God didn’t argue with him a bit! You see, this is the position that God’s been in … Might say, ‘Well, if God’s running things He’s doing a lousy job of it.’ He hadn’t been running ’em, except when He’s just got, you know, a little bit of a chance.”

Kenneth Copeland (Image of God in You III, 1989, audiotape #01-1403, side 1)

“Here’s where we’re gonna depart from ordinary church: Now, you see, God is injecting His Word into the earth to produce this Jesus—these faith-filled words that framed the image that’s in Him … He can’t just walk onto the earth and say, ‘Let it be!’ because He doesn’t have the right. He had to sneak it in here around the god of this world that was blockin’ every way that he possibly could.”

Kenneth Copeland (The Image of God in You III, 1989, audiotape #01-1403, side 2)

“The Bible says that God gave this earth to the sons of men … and when [Adam] turned and gave that dominion to Satan, look where it left God. If left Him on the outside looking in … He had no legal right to do anything about it, did He? … He had injected Himself illegally into the earth—what Satan had intended for Him to do was to fall for it—pull off an illegal act and turn the light off in God, and subordinate God to himself … He intended to get God into such a trap that He couldn’t get out.”

Kenneth Copeland (What Happened from the Cross to the Throne, 1990, audiotape #02-0017)

“Adam committed high treason; and at that point, all the dominion and authority God had given to him was handed over to Satan. Suddenly, God was on the outside looking in … After Adam’s fall, God found Himself in a peculiar position …God needed an avenue back into the earth …God laid out His proposition and Abram accepted it. It gave God access to the earth and gave man access to God ... Technically, if God ever broke the Covenant, He would have to destroy Himself.”

Kenneth Copeland (Our Covenant with God, 1987, pp. 8-11)

“God had no avenue of lasting faith or moving in the earth. He had to have covenant with somebody. ... He had to be invited in, in other words, or He couldn’t come. God is on the outside looking in. In order to have any say so in the earth, He’s going to have to be in agreement with a man here.”

Kenneth Copeland (God’s Covenants With Man II, 1985, audiotape #01-4404, side 1)

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These men think they're Gods!

“Jesus is no longer the only begotten Son of God.”

Kenneth Copeland (Now We Are In Christ Jesus, 1980, p. 24)

"You are not a spiritual schizophrenic -- half-God and half-Satan -- you are all-God"

Kenneth Copeland (Now We Are in Christ Jesus, 1980, p.16-17)

“You don’t have a god in you, you are one,”

Kenneth Copeland (The Force of Love, 1987, audiotape #02-0028, side 1)

"I say this with all respect so that it don't upset you too bad, but I say it anyway. When I read in the Bible where he [Jesus] says, 'I Am,' I just smile and say, 'Yes, I Am, too!'"

Kenneth Copeland (Believer's Voice of Victory, TBN July 9, 1987)

"Now Peter said by exceeding great and precious promises you become partakers of the divine class. All right, are we gods? We are a class of gods!"

Kenneth Copeland (Praise The Lord, TBN February 5, 1986)

"Adam was created in God's own image and likeness, a spirit-being...[and] takes on the nature of his spiritual father or lord."

Kenneth Copeland (Our Covenant with God, 1987, p.7-8)

“Gods reason for creating Adam was his desire to reproduce himself.” I mean a reproduction of Himself. And in the Garden of Eden He did just that. He was not a little like God, He was not almost like God, He was not subordinate to God even…Adam was as much like God as you can get, just the same as Jesus. Adam in the Garden of Eden was God manifested in the flesh”

Kenneth Copeland (Following the faith of Abraham Audio, #01-3001 side 1)

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The Anointing

"Believers are not to be led by logic," he writes. "We are not even to be led by good sense"

Kenneth Copeland (The Force of Faith, 7)

"You have the same creative faith and ability on the inside of you that God used when he created the heavens and the earth."

Kenneth Copeland (Inner Image of the Covenant, side 2)

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The 100 fold theory

"Do you want a hundredfold return on your money? Give and let God multiply it back to you. He urges his supporters, "Invest heavily in God; the returns are staggering, ... "Every man who invests in the Gospel has a right to expect the staggering return of one hundredfold."

Kenneth Copeland (Laws of Prosperity , pg.67)

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The importance of earthly riches

"The basic principle of the Christian life is to know that God put our sin, sickness, disease, sorrow, grief, and poverty on Jesus at Calvary," he asserts. "For Him to put any of this on us now would be a miscarriage of justice."

Kenneth Copeland (The Troublemaker, 6)

“Well, they say, you need balance in this, get out there in that hyper faith, that name-it-and-claim-it, that blab-it-and-grab-it. YEAH! We named it and claimed it and got it. (crowd cheers)-Blabbed it and grabbed it and still got it ! Hallelujah! And our bills are paid."

Kenneth Copeland (speaking at John Hagee's Church, August 18, 1999)

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Health is yours for the claiming

"You began to meditate on those scriptures until you built an inner image of yourself healed. As that image grew more crisp and clear, you began to expect- or hope for - that image to become a reality. Eventually, faith rose up, put substance to that internal image and turned it into an external reality. ... That spiritual process always works the same way. Hope forms the image according to the Word, then faith rises up and gives substance to that image, making it a reality in the natural, physical realm. ... Actually, what you did is activate the scriptural process described in Hebrews 11:1 "Faith is the substance of things hoped for ... Boil it down to its simplest form, and you could write it like this: God's Word+Hope+Faith=Manifestation! ... You'll be expecting the very presence of God to rise up in you so powerfully that instead of believing for healing every six weeks, you'll walk in divine health every day!"

Kenneth Copeland ("Expect The Glory", Believer's Voice of Victory magazine, January 1998, p. 5)

"... It wasn't Peter's shadow that healed them. What was it? That field of Glory that surrounded him. That's what [sic] God put hope in you to expect. The Glory! ... It will flood the earth when we meditate upon the Glory of God so much that hope rises up and produces an image. Then faith will release the Glory of God from the inside of us where we can't see it to the outside where we can see it! ... Does this sound wild to you? Well, it's not! If you'll go back and read the Bible, you'll see that's what Christianity is all about. God intended for the Body of Christ to walk through this earth with such a manifestation of His presence in our lives that it would either scare people spitless ... or draw them into the Kingdom of God!"

Kenneth Copeland ("Expect The Glory", Believer's Voice of Victory magazine, January 1998, p. 6)

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Results of lack of faith

"God cannot do anything for you apart or separate from faith,"

Kenneth Copeland (Freedom from Fear, 1983, 11)

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4th Dimension of non-carnal attainment

"Pray to yourself, because I'm in your self and you're in My self. We are one Spirit, saith the Lord."

Kenneth Copeland ("Believer's Voice of Victory", Feb. 1987, p.9)

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The faith force

"Faith is a power force," he claims. "It is a tangible force. It is a conductive force."

Kenneth Copeland (The Force of Faith, 1989, 10)

"Faith is a spiritual force....It is substance. Faith has the ability to effect natural substance."

Kenneth Copeland (Forces of the Recreated Human Spirit, 1982, 8)

"The force of gravity...makes the law of gravity work...this force of faith...makes the laws of the spirit world function."

Kenneth Copeland (The Laws of Prosperity, 1974, 18-19)

"Faith is God's source of power"

Kenneth Copeland (Forces of the Recreated Human Spirit, 1982, 8)

"Faith was the raw material substance that the Spirit of God used to form the universe."

Kenneth Copeland (Authority of the Believer II, 1987, audiotape #01-0302, side 1)

"The force of faith was controlling His (Jesus') ministry."

Kenneth Copeland (The Force of Faith, 9)

"Man was created to know that great life force and he longs for it in his dreams. Adam had that life force in him before he committed high treason"

Kenneth Copeland (What Happened from the Cross to the Throne, side 2)

"God did not create the world out of nothing, He used the Force of His Faith."

Kenneth Copeland (Spirit, Soul and Body, #01-0601, Tape #1)

"Faith is God's source of power"

Kenneth Copeland (Freedom From Fear, 1983. p. 12)

Donny Short

12-07-2003, 12:48 AM

Kenneth Copeland part 3

Words are spiritual containers

"Words are spiritual containers,"

Kenneth Copeland (Forces of the Recreated Human Spirit, 15; cf. 14)

The "force of faith is released by words."

Kenneth Copeland (Authority of the Believer II, 1987, audiotape #01-0302, side 1)

"God used words when He created the heaven and the earth....Each time God spoke, He released His faith -- the creative power to bring His words to pass."

Kenneth Copeland (The Power of the Tongue, 1980, 4)

"As a born-again believer, you are equipped with the Word. You have the power of God at your disposal. By getting the Word deep into your spirit and speaking it boldly out your mouth, you release spiritual power to change things in the natural circumstances."

Kenneth Copeland (The Power of the Tongue, 1980, 15)

"Words create pictures, and pictures in your mind create words. And then the words come back out your mouth....And when that spiritual force comes out it is going to give substance to the image that's on the inside of you. Aw, that's that visualization stuff! Aw, that's that New Age! No, New Age is trying to do this; and they'd get somewhat results out of it because this is spiritual law, brother."

Kenneth Copeland (Believer's Voice of Victory, TBN, March 28, 1991)

"Words are the most sacred things....This is a word planet...governed by words...created by words....Words cause it to function...cause life...cause death....Words go on forever....Words are holy."

Kenneth Copeland (The Abrahamic Covenant, side 1)

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Sensual manifestations

"Everything that you're able to see or touch, anything that you can feel, anything that's perceptive to the five physical senses, was originally the faith of God, and was born in the substance of God's faith."

Kenneth Copeland (Spirit, Soul and Body I, 1985, audiotape #01-0601, side 1)

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Above Reproach - testing their spirits

[Copeland claims Jesus told him personally in a vision:] "Don’t be disturbed when people put you down and speak harshly and roughly of you. They spoke that way of Me, should they not speak that way of you? The more you get to be like Me, the more they’re going to think that way of you. They crucified Me for claiming that I was God. But I didn’t claim I was God; I just claimed I walked with Him and He was in Me. Hallelujah. That's what you're doing."

Kenneth Copeland ("Take Time To Pray," Believer’s Voice Of Victory 15, February 1987, 9)

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God is the biggest failure in the bible

"I was shocked when I found out who the biggest failure in the Bible actually is...The biggest one in the whole Bible is God...I mean, He lost His top-ranking, most anointed angel; the first man He ever created; the first woman He ever created; the whole earth and all the fullness therein; a third of the angels, at least - that's a big loss, man....Now, the reason you don't think of God as a failure is He never said He's a failure. And you're not a failure till you say you're one."

Kenneth Copeland (Praise-a-thon on Praise The Lord, April 1988)

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Jesus was raped by Roman soldiers

“Let me tell you something folks. Anybody in here that’s ever been sexually abused, listen to me right now. Listen to me very carefully. The Bible’s very careful about the way it says these things. But down there in that dungeon, Romans, ungodly men, ungodly men, put Him (Jesus) to every kind of abuse that you can think of. There is no sin that Jesus didn’t bare. There is no thing, there is no such thing as a sexual abuse on somebody that Jesus doesn’t know firsthand what it’s all about. He’s been where you are. I don’t care what you’ve been through, Jesus has been through it. And everything’s done to him that we couldn’t even speak of.”

Kenneth Copeland (The Resurrection Truth)

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God's physical description

“God spoke Adam into existence in authority with words. These words struck Adam’s body in the face. His body and God’s were exactly the same size.”

Kenneth Copeland (Holy Bible, Kenneth Copeland Reference Edition 1991, p. 45)

"If you stood Adam upside God, they look just exactly alike....If you stood Jesus and Adam side-by-side, they would look and act and sound exactly alike....The image is that they look just alike, but the likeness is that they act alike and they are alike....All of God's attributes, all of God's authority, all of God's faith, all of God's ability was invested in that man."

Kenneth Copeland (Authority of the Believer IV 1987, audiotape #01-0304), side 1)

"The Bible said He measured the heavens with a 9 inch span. Now the span is the difference, distance between the end of the thumb and the end of the little Finger. And, and that Bible said, in fact the amplified translation translates the Hebrew text that way. That He measured out the heavens with a 9 inch span. Well, I got a ruler and measured mine, and my span's 8 3/4 inches long. So now God's span is a quarter of an inch, a quarter inch longer than mine. So you see, that faith didn't come billowing out of some giant monster somewhere. It came out of the heart of a being that is very uncanny the way He's very much like you and me. A being that stands somewhere around 6' 2 ", 6' 3", that weighs somewhere in the neighbourhood of a couple of hundred pounds, little better, has a span of 8 and, I mean nine inches across - stood up and said "Light be [Let it be?]", and this universe situated itself and went into motion. Glory to God."

Kenneth Copeland ("Spirit, Soul, and a Body 1" 1985, audio tape #01-0601, side 1)

God is a “spirit-being with a body, complete with eyes, and eyelids, ears, nostrils, a mouth, hands and fingers, and feet.”

Kenneth Copeland (Kenneth Copeland ministry letter, 21 July 1977)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Womb-Man

“Adam was made in the image of God. He was as much female as he was male. He was exactly like God. Then God separated him and removed the female part. Woman means ‘man with the womb.’ Eve had as much authority as Adam did as long as they stayed together.”

Kenneth Copeland (Sensitivity of Heart, KCP Publications, 1984, p. 23)

"Then, he created Eve out of Adam. Now, actually God didn’t name her Eve, Adam named her Eve later. That wasn’t her name, her name was Adam . . . Adam. When God said Adam, they both came. Their authority was one and the same together. They did everything together. They had always been together. Even when she was still part of him, he was as much female as he was male, LIKE GOD IS. And God separated the female part of him and then put them back together. Andshe was Adam, they were Adam. He was the man, she was the woman. She was the man with the womb."

Kenneth Copeland ((Transcribed From A Message Given By Kenneth Copeland, Paw Creek Ministries) )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

God lives on the mother planet

"Heaven has a north and a south and an east and a west. Consequently, it must be a planet."

Kenneth Copeland (Following the Faith of Abraham I, 1989 audiotape, #01-3001, side 1)

"You don’t think earth was first, do you? Huh? Well, you don’t think that God made man in His image, and then made earth in some other image? There is not anything under this whole sun that’s new. Are you hearing what I’m saying? This is all a copy. It’s a copy of home. It’s a copy of the Mother Planet. Where God lives, He made a little one just like His and put us on it.”

Kenneth Copeland (Following the Faith of Abraham I, 1989 audiotape, #01-3001, side 1)

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I have met and/or spoken to Jesus

(Relating Jesus speaking) “Don’t be disturbed when people put you down and speak harshly and roughly of you. They spoke that way of Me, should they not speak that way of you? The more you get to be like Me, the more they’re going to think that way of you. They crucified Me for claiming that I was God. But I didn’t claim I was God; I just claimed I walked with Him and that He was in Me. Hallelujah.”

Kenneth Copeland (“Take Time to Pray,” Believer’s Voice of Victory, February 1987, p. 9)

Little Lamb

12-07-2003, 07:35 AM

Donny,

What you're posting is real good stuff. You and I will get along fine.

Benny seems arogant and prideful. God does not know him. I'll be back to read the rest.

Greg

12-07-2003, 08:41 AM

Donny,

What you're posting is real good stuff

I agree, good stuff!!! But I find a couple things missing with each accusation. Where is the scriptual refference from which one draws the evidence of biblical error in teaching?????????? And where is the "faith" message that we are supposed to discuss?????

Without scriptual refference are we not expected to simply have faith that what the accuser is saying is true???? :o
And how can we discuss faith if other issues are brought forth????
Perhaps we need to get our definitions laid out before we progress further in this discussion.

As I have said I am more than willing to discuss this but let us do it neatly and in order as God would have things done within the church. Let us keep the amount of what we post limited to a reasonable length. Since it appears some have come looking for a fight they have "let me have it" by leaving a page and a half of posts. I will need some time to respond to each individually, as I will and with scripture (within it's context).

After having read through all the posts that Rev. Donny has left I can find very little that he has posted that directly concerns the message of "Faith" which I thought we were going to discuss. I find much listed concerning prosperity and self righteousness concerning spiritual giftings. Remember, I never said that there were not those who were the fringe elements and many of which are not truly preaching the faith message but one of "self. I agree faith is the basis for most of these side issues but faith is also the basis for salvation so should we also discount those who preach salvation??????? Some even take this topic to extremes!

We can start threads for these side issues if necessary but I would like to keep this centered on the "Message of Faith" as the title indicates. Not the message of "Prosperity" nor the message of "Gifts", just faith. Hey, we cannot leave earth without it.

Simply a reminder, please remember to provide a scriptual refference when making an accusation. As Christians the Word and the Word alone should be the basis for all we do and say.

I am out of time so since by faith I believe God is and by faith in grace I received the savation provided for me, I am off to church to worship Him and Him alone in faith!!!!!

kevingaily

12-07-2003, 08:45 AM

I agree LL. I was into this doctrine for years until I finally realized it was false. I was praying for riches and thinking I could simply claim a healing for someone. Yet it never happened. Now I'm not saying God doesn't heal, but that he's not some sugardaddy that simply bends to our wills.

One of my good friends mom was into that doctrine. She had cancer and was claiming her healing and saying "I shall not die but live." Yet she died anyway. It nearly destroyed my friend's faith and caused the rest of his family, especially his brother, to hate God because he didn't answer.

In this movement, you are told that if you don't recieve what you are believing God for it's because either you lack sufficient faith, or else there's sin in your life!

I was at one of these churches where while putting on a Christmas play at their church they stopped it in the middle and gave a big sales pitch. The "minister" said that if you truly love god then you will get out your wallet and give the biggest bill you have in it. It made me sick.

Don't get me wrong, every good lie has truth in it. many times what these folks preach is o'k, but it's these extra lies they add that leavens the lump for evil.

I would watch Copeland all the time. He would have around five translations around him so he could pick and choose which one seemed to imply what he wanted to say. Forget an exegetical study of the actual Greek words.

I love when certain of these preachers have you call their 1-900 number so you can claim their new car, in Jesus' name!! Yeah, it's real sound doctrine alright. :devil:

ps. Greg, you are correct, not everyone fit's into this catagory, but it has done much harm to the pentecostal and charismatic churches, hasn't it?

saved

12-07-2003, 08:45 AM

Originally posted by me again
What exactly is the Word of Faith movement?
Is it real?
Is it heresy?
Is it of God? It includes such people as Oral Roberts, Kenneth Hagin (he's dead now), Kenneth Copeland, Marilyn Hickey, Fred Price, et al.

What do you think? :think:

Much of what they do is false teachings. Those that you have mentioned have all given false doctrine as well as spoken false prophesies. Scripture calls for the death of a false prophet so I suggest they be treated as dead. Do not listen to them!

kevingaily

12-07-2003, 09:30 AM

Look, I want to make a distinction here. Faith is Good, ja? The problem is not do these folks have faith, but that word is much loaded with extra doctrine. I truly believe when we pray according to God's will he hears us, and answers.

The problem I've seen is when folks think that it's a formula to get what they want to satisfy their own selves. That everything you want, God will give you. It's not about us, though. This doctrine of name it and claim it and the prosperity gospel only holds any persuasion in the rich western countries. Try to peddle that stuff in countries where folks are poor, and persecuted and they'll laugh you away. Can you see it? I'm imprisioned in _________ where the gospel is against the law. I'm being beatened and my wife has been raped. My house has been confiscated and I'm now destitute. Where was God in all of this if he wants me to be so prosperous and will answer all my requests? Can I claim my healing or car, or house....in Jesus name? In Hebrews eleven we read of many in the latter part of the chapter who didn't recieve the promises. They were destitute and even sawn in two. How much more will people not get all the nice comfortable things they ask for?

God is good. He does bless us with many things, but we can't view having things as a sign of god's good pleasure; that hardship is only for the weak in faith and the sinner. Read in Job how one of Job's so called comforters tried to peddle this off on Job. Jobs problems were allowed by God, and had nothing to do with Job's lack of faith. God was wroth with this so called comforter. I really encourage everyone to read or reread Job. It is relevent to this discussion.

Jesus said it rains on the just and the unjust. So getting stuff you or I want isn't a sign, though we are to be thankful whether little or a lot.

I leave you with one verse that speaks volumes. it's in Proverbs 30.

7 Two things have I required of thee; deny me them not before I die:
8 Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me:
9 Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the LORD? or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain.

And secondly:

10 He that loveth silver shall not be satisfied with silver; nor he that loveth abundance with increase: this is also vanity.

me again

12-07-2003, 09:39 AM

Kevin, those are very good, thought provoking points. :agree: :idea: :think:

Greg

12-07-2003, 02:05 PM

Hold on folks. We need to define "faith". Again you are going on concerning other things. We are called by Jesus to "Have faith in God" are we not in Mark 11:22?

What is this faith we are to have????????

Are we not to to hope for things "not seen" as we are given the definition of faith in Hebrews 11???????????

Are we not told in Proverbs that "the power of life and death are in the tongue???????"

Are we not to "call those things that are not as though they are???" Did Jesus not really say what is written in Mark 11:22-24??????????

Jesus came seeking those whom would believe in Him by faith, He continually sought faith. He marveled at great faith and was disappointed at little or no faith. It is even asked in scripture if He will find faith when He returns.

When one selfishly prays for finances then more than likely your prayers will go unanswere for you asked amiss, without the right heart. You asked seeking only for yourself. God gives to us so that we have to give. It is when our hearts have this attitude that we can then see prosperity flowing from God into our lives.

As for healing does not the scripture say that, "by His stripes we were?are healed???????""""" Did Jesus bear his stripes for nothing??? Even the word salvation itself implies a healing, not simply spiritual but physical also. To receive from God requires faith just as one's salvation did. Faith is faith and we are to exercise it so it will grow. Faith cometh by hearing. This word hering in the Greek implies repetition. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing and hearing............

Hearing what???? What the Word has to say concerning us and a given situation. We overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the word of OUR testimony. What is our testimony? Is it not something we no to be true?? If I know God heals shall I not speak it over my life??? I believe that God can and will heal you but that is as far as I can go with it for it it then up to you to "have faith" and receive.

Having faith in God is nothing more than believing God is who He says He is and believing/trusting that is is more than able to preform that which He has promised and that He will do it. Hebrews 11.

Just because someone didin't receive what they were praying for doesn't mean that "faith stuff" doesn't work! That is like throwing the baby out with the bath water! When Jesus had returned home He couls preform no mighty work. Why? It wasn't because it was the will of the Father not to heal nor deliver. As we read it was because of unbelief!!!! There was no faith to be found.

Some have said it to be herecy for another to proclaim that they would rather have a church full of those attempting to walk in faith an d coming up short as opposed to a church that denys faith. I'm sorry bur Jesus honor those who are truying but cannot quite hit the mark, so to speak. He couldn't do anything back home because of unbelief, the lack of faith but we can read when He spoke with the Father who had the son with a demon, Jesus asked the father a simple question, "Do you believe?" We all know the father's response and yet Jesus healed his son. Why didn't Jesus heal those back home? Because of unbelief. Here the Father said he believed but there was still some unbelief. Jeus responds to faith, even at times when it is weak but still, faith needs to be there.

Anyone can run around proiclaiming they are willing to die for Christ. There is no faith in that. It takes someone of faith to put themselves aside and live for Christ. We can have a form of religion but that doesn't quite get it in Gods eyes. We are told that "without faith we cannot please Him."

How do you who purpose we please God without faith then???????

Again, if were are to talk about the "prosperity message" or "healing message" then let us call it that. But if you want to call it faith anfd talk about other things then I am afraid you really do not know what the "faith message" truly is and thus we cannot truly discuss it. Please clarify that topic of which you want to discuss.

SEMPER FI!!!!!

saved

12-07-2003, 04:01 PM

Greg,
I just picked out one thing you wrote;

"As for healing does not the scripture say that, "by His stripes we were?are healed???????""""" Did Jesus bear his stripes for nothing??? Even the word salvation itself implies a healing, not simply spiritual but physical also."

The Greek word for healed in Peter is "iaomai {ee-ah'-om-ahee}"
It means
1) to cure, heal

2) to make whole

a) to free from errors and sins, to bring about (one's) salvation

In the context that peter is using the term does not mean that we are all guaranteed physical healing. We ARE however all guaranteed salvation IF we will repent and come to faith. One day we will all be physically healed, but that time is not now. That is not to say that we should not seek the Lord for healing, but I can assure you that your denomination does not get any more results then any other, because it is not a promise for physical healing. So the answer is NO it does not imply physical healing as a guarantee for now.

Greg

12-07-2003, 08:59 PM

Saved,

I will address this off topic subject for perhaps I didn't make myself quite clear as to what this discussion should hold to as the topic.

If one simply takes a part of the definition you have provided the one could make the claim which you have but in the very same definition there is the implication of physical healing which is available to us all. It is simply our choice to believe it!

God is a God who delights in the prosperity of His servants. This prosperity includes health. We can see this promise of health here in Exodus 23;

24 Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images.
25 And ye shall serve the LORD your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee.
26 There shall nothing cast their young, nor be barren, in thy land: the number of thy days I will fulfil.

And here in Psalms 105;

37 He brought them forth also with silver and gold: and there was not one feeble person among their tribes.

Now let us look at the words of our Lord concerning healing,

Mark 16;
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Matthew 21;

20 And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!
21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Now unless God is no longer the same today as He was yesterday and has become a respector of persons we can stand on thses scriptures for our physical healing which was provided for by the stripes upon His back as was our salvation at the cross.

Saved, I never claimed that my denomination received anymore healings than another, you did. But since you brought it up I can say I have seen more "healings" by the laying on of hands as our Lord said would be done by those who believe than I have in denominations that do not believe! Even Jesus could not heal because of unbelief proving that an element of faith is required for one to be healed.

Ever notice the passage concerning the woman with the issue of blood? She was confessing her healing because of the faith she held concerning Christ. Christ never purposed to heal her. In fact, when she touched His garment and He felt virtue leave Him, He asked who touched Him. He didn't know who had received their healing. They simply believed and by faith received it! If I but touch the hem of His garment I shall be healed! I like the word shall for in the Bible, no matter who said it, it carries a definition of something being imminent!!!

As I have said many times so far one cannot even be saved without faith. Adding to that one cannot receive their salvation without faith. Where do we draw the line on where our faith is to stop?????

How does one truly know they are saved???

Now that I have addressed yet another off topic subject which was drawn from a response to another off subject topic can we now get to the heart of the topic for which this thread is titled and that would be FAITH, not healing, not prosperity as in many riches, not name it and claim it but black and white biblical faith?????

Does anyone really want to discuss biblical faith??? All I have read from the "faith message" critics is nothing more than judgment from those who view only the fringe element and decide for themselves that all those who choose to live the faith message are heretics. It is sad that some can easily overlook the flesh and man made doctrines of their own beliefs and denominational teachings yet seem to spot the short comings of other miles away and do the best they can to kill and destroy anything which they cannot accept as truth.:duel:

North

12-07-2003, 10:16 PM

Rev Short,

Thank you for taking the time to post those quotes. It is time consuming but should give people reason to pause. For those who do not like the Roman Catholic Church, these Word of Faith folks make the RCC look 100% bible based and orthodox.

What is amazing and a testament to our intellectual flabbiness is that a pew sitting Christian can hear these Word of Faith folks state things more in line with Mormon Theology than orthodox Christian theology and be completely unaware of it. Yet these same pew christians would laugh at the deluded Mormons. Oh..vey.

As you mention (and Hank Hanegraaff) there is also the false prophet factor as these folks make blatantly false prophecies which should alone be enough to discredit them.

Let me see....Word of Faith.......unscriptural doctrines, really bad theology.....false prophecies but they do tickle the ears.

North

saved

12-07-2003, 10:48 PM

Greg
I am continually amazed at this false movement on healing. The very people that calim that God has offered healing in the atonement have the same number of illness's as anyone else. I once had a friend who got caught up in all this false doctrine about healing. One morning he showed up at church looking like warmed over death. I asked him what he was doing at church and so sick. He told me that he was not sick, he had been healed, but was just waiting on the evidence.
We did have a conversation about that anbd he finally saw the light, but the movement is a false one.

Donny Short

12-07-2003, 10:54 PM

Greg, I posted the quotes to set a stage to explore this subject. You will have to forgive me for not following up today. Sunday is a day I try to rest and get away from things so to speak.

I don't have much going on this week and will converse with you on this matter.

Please keep in mind that what i have to say i say it with no Ill in my heart for anyone. Also note that i am not attacking you because you follow this doctrine.

Keep in mind that i have studied this for more than 20 years.

Also I would ask that you prayerfully read what i have to say about this movement.

saved

12-07-2003, 10:59 PM

Originally posted by Rev Donny Short
Greg, I posted the quotes to set a stage to explore this subject. You will have to forgive me for not following up today. Sunday is a day I try to rest and get away from things so to speak.

I don't have much going on this week and will converse with you on this matter.

Please keep in mind that what i have to say i say it with no Ill in my heart for anyone. Also note that i am not attacking you because you follow this doctrine.

Keep in mind that i have studied this for more than 20 years.

Also I would ask that you prayerfully read what i have to say about this movement.

Donny,
my apologies on the word of faith movement. I thought that you stood for it. I still do not know you as far as I can remember.

Little Lamb

12-07-2003, 11:02 PM

Originally posted by saved
Donny,
that is not a great testamony that you have studied that long and still deceived. The word of fath is a false movement. It is lead by money mongers, not biblical truth.
! ! ! ! NEWS FLASH! ! ! !
saved,

You and Donny agree on this somewhat. He's writing against it.

saved

12-07-2003, 11:14 PM

Originally posted by Little Lamb
! ! ! ! NEWS FLASH! ! ! !
saved,

You and Donny agree on this somewhat. He's writing against it.
Thank you for the correction. I though he was for it.

Little Lamb

12-07-2003, 11:15 PM

Originally posted by saved
Thank you for the correction. I though he was for it.
You've got to be kidding me.

saved

12-07-2003, 11:54 PM

Originally posted by Little Lamb
You've got to be kidding me.

Why would I be kidding?:shrug:

kevingaily

12-08-2003, 07:12 AM

Originally posted by North
Rev Short,

Thank you for taking the time to post those quotes. It is time consuming but should give people reason to pause. For those who do not like the Roman Catholic Church, these Word of Faith folks make the RCC look 100% bible based and orthodox.

What is amazing and a testament to our intellectual flabbiness is that a pew sitting Christian can hear these Word of Faith folks state things more in line with Mormon Theology than orthodox Christian theology and be completely unaware of it. Yet these same pew christians would laugh at the deluded Mormons. Oh..vey.

As you mention (and Hank Hanegraaff) there is also the false prophet factor as these folks make blatantly false prophecies which should alone be enough to discredit them.

Let me see....Word of Faith.......unscriptural doctrines, really bad theology.....false prophecies but they do tickle the ears.

North

2 Timothy 4
3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

I think this says it well.

Little Lamb

12-08-2003, 07:19 AM

Originally posted by Little Lamb
You've got to be kidding me.

Originally posted by saved
Why would I be kidding?:shrug:

Ok I'm beginning to see how you are. Donny has posted nothing but the truth, and you attack him. You thought he was for this faith movenjent. That means you just saw his name and attacked him without reading his posts. That's not nice. :duel:

saved

12-08-2003, 08:03 AM

Originally posted by Little Lamb
Originally posted by Little Lamb
You've got to be kidding me.

Ok I'm beginning to see how you are. Donny has posted nothing but the truth, and you attack him. You thought he was for this faith movenjent. That means you just saw his name and attacked him without reading his posts. That's not nice. :duel:

Yes that is what happened. That is why I apologized to him when you pointed it out. His post was long and I based what I said on what I understand about his belief system. That was wrong. I know of nothing more that I can do except apologize and try and not make the same error again. I know of only one who continues to accuse the brethern when they try and be open to their faults as I have done.

Little Lamb

12-08-2003, 08:05 AM

Originally posted by saved
Yes that is what happened. That is why I apologized to him when you pointed it out. His post was long and I based what I said on what I understand about his belief system. That was wrong. I know of nothing more that I can do except apologize and try and not make the same error again. I know of only one who continues to accuse the brethern when they try and be open to their faults as I have done.
And who is that?

kevingaily

12-08-2003, 08:11 AM

Let's play nice! ;) :cool:

I've done my share of putting my foot in my mouth. It was a zealous misunderstanding. :D

Donny Short

12-08-2003, 08:57 AM

Yes a mis-understanding, no harm no foul.

I want to do all within my power to keep this civil and present a Godly discussion so as not to do any undue harm.

Saved mis-understood my post. That has happened to me before.

No problem.

Little Lamb

12-08-2003, 09:01 AM

Originally posted by Rev Donny Short
Yes a mis-understanding, no harm no foul.

I want to do all within my power to keep this civil and present a Godly discussion so as not to do any undue harm.

Saved mis-understood my post. That has happened to me before.

No problem.
Ok, you and saved go way back. I don't think he should attack you, but that's just me.

What will be, will be.

If saved read your post at all, he would understand you both agree on this somewhat.

Eurogal

12-08-2003, 09:06 AM

posted by saved: "Thank you for the correction. I though he was for it." (meaning D. Short supporting WordOfFaith)
response by Lamby : "You've got to be kidding me."

Lamby…Save was not kidding as you had hoped. He was just reporting how he picked up his mental impressions after having perused what D.Short posted but in a fast superficial manner.

I too have hurt good going situations with snap judgments before all the facts were in to make a righteous judgment.

All of us have mental filters. Forum like these help train us to think more logically, to observer more in detail, and we become more proficient in smoother communication skills.

The exchange between Save and Lamby reminds me of a conversation between me, an Aussie guy and a California guy online.

The California guy lives his whole life in the foothills of the Sierra Mountains of California.

I asked the Aussie living in Australia where he went for his honeymoon.

The Aussie guy said they went to LA for their honeymoon.

The California guy asked..” where is LA?”.

I am glad as he sat before his monitor the California guy could not hear how loudly I laughed as I sat before my monitor.

Then I wrote in “It must be a wonder condition of mind to live one’s whole life in the Sierras of California and not at all know where LA the city of Angels is located. Such a blessing!!!

The California guy is a very lovable guy and was flabbergasted that his mind had such a blind spot. It was so unconceivable for him that such a simple mistake could occur as he saw the LA word acronym written by the Aussie guy. He immediately saw the association further with our religious spiritual problems that arise all the time between us religious folk when such human foibles of brain functions happens on and off with us all.

That is why the Lord knew we needed the work influence of the Holy Spirit to guide us in truth. Thank the Lord for the Penecost happening. He has given us a true Comforter.

Eurogal

Eurogal

12-08-2003, 09:10 AM

The Word of Faith Movement : Wauf! ....speak about being utterly flabagasted with those false prophet quotes posted by DonShort..... I am shocked!

Sitting here and going through them made me cringe for those taking their teachings into themselves without testing. I put the whole of this thread topic to my file in directory and am grateful for the evidence made available here.

thank you D.Short.

Little Lamb

12-08-2003, 09:11 AM

Eurogal,

I do have a preconceived idea how Donny and saved may get along or not get along. I really have no idea how they interact with each other. I should just keep reading how they get along and then decide for myself.

But you know me, I have to jump in there and say my 2 cents worth right away.

Eurogal

12-08-2003, 09:12 AM

:hi: Greg....
SEMPER FI!

The full meaning I haven’t figured out…. All I know is that in Latin semper has to do with forever, or always. Want to let me in on the thrust of the meaning, Greg ?

e-gal

Eurogal

12-08-2003, 09:28 AM

:rose: Kevin.... you post warmed my heart.

Kevingaily : "Faith is Good, ja? I truly believe when we pray according to God's will he hears us, and answers."

:boing: Jahwohl! Brüder. :) You really see how the pseudo-christians are misusing prayer for their selfish power controlling motives. “name it and claim it” that’s it! That's the pseudo's attitude. This impudently audacious approach to manipulating the Divine is, as you say, a mounting western world sin.

You said : "...but we can't view having things as a sign of God's good pleasure; that hardship is only for the weak in faith and the sinner.”

This is why I can’t claim myself for being a Calvinist. The John Calvin was promoting that if you are rich you are blessed by God. The logic of the contrary would then condemn anyone in dire straights or lack as being chastized by God for weakness in faith or having sinned somehow.

Eurogal grüß dich :rose:

Donny Short

12-08-2003, 10:57 AM

The Jesus Died Spiritually Doctrine

To me the most damaging doctrine of the word of faith movement is the Jesus died spiritually doctrine. They believe and teach that Jesus was born again in hell after suffering three days and nights at the hands of the devil. They claim that his work on the Cross was not enough. Many of these people belittle the blood of Christ and they add to the redemptive work of the Cross.

Lets take a look at what some of them have to say about the Spiritual death of Christ.

“Jesus had to go through that same spiritual death in order to pay the price. Now it wasn’t the physical death on the cross that paid the price for sin, because if it had of been any prophet of God that had died for the last couple of thousand years before that could have paid that price. It wasn’t physical death anybody could do that.”

Kenneth Copeland (What Satan Saw on the Day of Pentecost, audio tape #020022)

“Jesus tasted spiritual death.”

Kenneth Hagin, Jr. (How Jesus obtained His Name, Tape 44H01)

“Somewhere between the time He [Jesus] was nailed to the cross and when He was in the Garden of Gethsemane-somewhere in there-He died spiritually. Personally, I believe it was while He was in the garden.”

Fredrick K.C. Price (Identification #3, 1980, tape #FP545, side 1)

In order to better under stand what happened after the death of Christ it is important to note that up until Christ that man was separated from God. Because of the fall of Adam man could not enter into the presence of God and even after death he was still separated.

In the lower parts of the earth were two places where the souls that had died were held. One is a place or torment called hell. Souls were held here until the judgment and then cast into the lake of fire. The other place was called paradise or Abrahams bossom.

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Luke 16:19-26.

If you are familiar with the Old Testament law of sacrifice then you know that people were required to offer several different sacrifices.

There was a big problem with the Law of sacrifice though. It could not atone for sin. It would obtain the favor of God but it could no atone for sin. Because of that people were still separated from God after their death. Although they were not tormented in hell they were also not at home with God either.

The writer of Hebrews put it this way:

But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. Hebrews 9:11-17.

The writer made it very clear that the blood of bulls and goats could not compare to the blood of Christ.

This is the reason why Christ had to be pure and a spotless offering. This is the reason that on the Cross Christ was a pure sinless offering.

Fred Price said that Christ died spiritually in the Garden. This is about as stupid as it gets. Spiritual death is always caused by sin. If Christ died spiritually in the garden then it means that God sent a flawed offering to the Cross. Even in the Old Testament the sacrifices had to be without spot or blemish. If Christ died spiritually in the garden then that could only mean that he sinned. This is blasphemy folks. There is no possible way a true Christian could make such a statement. Only a devil would claim that Christ had sin in his life when he went to the Cross.

The death of Christ is what birthed the new covenant as the writer of Hebrews stated above. In order to redeem man from sin then the offering had to remain sinless until death. I have a personal belief this is why Jesus was mocked and treated the way he was on the Cross. I believe that satan was using those people to try to make him sin so his offering would be of none effect.

When Jesus died he went to the place in the earth called paradise. He never went into the hell side.

For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Matthew 12:40.

Kenneth Copeland says it this way.

"He allowed the devil to drag Him into the depths of hell as if He were the most wicked sinner who ever lived ... Every demon in hell came down on Him to annihilate Him ... [They] tortured Him beyond anything that anybody has ever conceived ... In a thunder of spiritual force, the voice of God spoke to the death-whipped, broken, punished spirit of Jesus ... [in] the pit of destruction, and charged the spirit of Jesus with resurrection power! Suddenly His twisted, death-wracked spirit began to fill out and come back to life ... He was literally being reborn before the devil's very eyes. He began to flex His spiritual muscles ... Jesus Christ dragged Satan up and down the halls of hell ... Jesus ... was raised up a born-again man ... The day I realized that a born-again man had defeated Satan, hell, and death, I got so excited ... !"

Kenneth Copeland ("The Price of it All," Believer’s Voice of Victory, September 1991, p. 4)

Where in the name of all that is Holy does he get this? I want scripture to prove this or I label Copeland as a devil and a liar. Copeland here blasphemes the redemptive work of Christ. This is a dangerous statement to make and those who believe and follow it cannot be born again because they have been given a perverted message about the Cross. That’s just exactly what it is perverted.

Jesus made this statement to the thief on the Cross.
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luke 23:43.

Jesus made it plainly clear that he was not going to hell but he was going to spend 3 days and nights in paradise.

Paul said this.

Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? Ephesians 4:8,9.

Once again there is no mention of Christ going to hell. Christ descended into paradise and liberated those souls that were held there and redeemed them from sin forever.

Look again what Paul said.

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Colossians 2:13-15.

This is enough proof that Christ defeated satan on the Cross and not in hell. Christ completed the redemptive work on the Cross. When he gave up the ghost he made a public and open display and forever spoiled the power of satan. The devil at that very moment because a defeated enemy and the love of God was made manifest for all who would believe.

The redemptive work Of Christ is the theme of the Bible. From Adams fall, to Moses sin, to David’s failure all through the Old Testament we are reminded that a savior was coming. We are given example after example of what price that savior would have to pay.

Does it not make sense that if part of the redemptive process was Christ had to be born again in hell that the Bible would clearly explain that? Christ did not need to be born again either in hell or on earth BECAUSE HE NEVER SINNED. He became a sin offering not a sinner.

Those who teach this are liars and are to be rejected. They have perverted the redemptive plan of God and if you try to stand before God and use this belief as your trust for salvation you will go to hell.

This doctrine is not just held by fringe elements of this movement, it is a staple of their faith and one that gives us enough proof that these people are ministers of satan.

saved

12-08-2003, 11:08 AM

Donny,
I certainly have to agree with your observation of this movement. The sad thing is that so many are caught up in it and many others are looking at it as being of God when it is not.

Little Lamb

12-08-2003, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by saved
Donny,
I certainly have to agree with your observation of this movement. The sad thing is that so many are caught up in it and many others are looking at it as being of God when it is not.
:yikes:

You agreed with Donny!

Donny Short

12-08-2003, 03:20 PM

The Gospel of Health and Wealth (part 1 of 2)

The word of faith crowd is notorious for their Gospel of gain. Most of the statements they make are so outlandish that it makes me wonder if these people have ever read a Bible.

Not long ago Kenneth Copeland held a conference in Dallas Texas. The usual suspects were there, Copeland, Creflo Dollar, Jesse Duplantis, Jerry Sevelle and the ilk of this sort.

What happened was a farce to put it mildly. One of the speakers stood up and began his talk on prosperity. He told the crowd they should take the biggest bill they have in their billfold or purse and give it to him. All of the speakers followed this trend. It was said that the people would run to the front and stuff money in their pockets until it made their suits look deformed. One of the speakers told the crowd he was not going to spend the money on the Gospel, he told them he was going to use it to buy a $5,000 dog. Another said he was going to sell his 8,000 square foot house and build a bigger one so that everyone who drove by it would know there was a God in America. Copeland encouraged the people that if they want to be blessed they need to find a minister who is blessed and sow into that minister.

Every time I think about the health and wealth Gospel a person I know comes to mind.

Her name was Sister Annie Lowe. Sister Lowe was a simple lady. She did not have much, she and her husband lived on a fixed income. They were such sweet people. Sister Lowe would spend her week visiting nursing homes and hospitals. She would go and pray for the people and in the nursing homes she would visit and share encouragement with the elderly there.

Sister Lowe loved to sing. But her voice was not as good as some others. Folks would make fun of her because she would buy her cloths at yard sales and flea markets and she would be so thankful to find stuff she could use there. She was plain and by todays standards she lived in the dark ages.

Sister Lowe always brought a list of prayer requests for the Church to pray for. She would collect them from the nursing homes and hospitals and she would spend hours in prayer for these people. But all she ever asked God for herself was to keep her husband healthy so he could drive her to the places she visited (she could not drive) and to give her the gas money to get there.

Once an elderly man in a nursing home gave her a request that he wanted his kids to come visit him. They were too busy to visit even though they lived in the same town he was in. Sister Lowe took the matter to God and not long afterward his kids started visiting him. When Sister Lowe went to prayer she would not let up until she moved Heaven.

Sister Lowe loved to testify. In all the years I knew her she never one time failed to thank God for being so good to her. In every service we had she would thank God for his faithfulness.

She never considered herself in poverty, she was thankful that God provided her with the means she needed to do what he called her to do. But the story does not end there.

Sister Lowe got deathly sick. Many of us thought it was her time to go. But God had another plan in mind. While Sister Lowe laid on her deathbed many of the folks she had visited found out about it. Folks she had prayed for in the hospitals found out and they all started praying for her. They started sending her cards and letters thanking her for being so gracious and letting her know what a blessing she had been. They promised to see her in heaven someday.

You see God let Sister Lowe fall deathly ill so he could show her what a difference she was making in the lives of people. Then God healed her and she went back to visiting and serving. I will never forget the night in Church when she finally got to come back and testified about how those people wrote her and how much it meant to her.

The effect that Sister Lowe and those like her have had will never be known until the day we stand before God and the books are opened and the account is given. My suspect is that those people will shine the brightest.

She was a humble servant and a faithful prayer warrior. A Godly woman full of faith and of the Holy Ghost.

I gave that story to say this. Neither Jesus nor any of his Apostles ever made money a requirement for preaching the Gospel.

The word of faith movement is notorious for their fund raising campaigns. It always involves some tactic that never ends up reaching the lost. More often than not the money goes to make the preacher rich and leaves the folks who give broke and confused.

One of the passages of scripture they twist is the parable of the seed and the sower. Read a few quotes from some of these wolves.

"The 100 fold is for this time were in. What would we do with the 100 fold in streets of heaven, because heavens streets are made of gold. You need the 100 fold because people need salvation, harvest time is the most expensive time on the farm, so you need abundance. God loves nice things he’s not a spin thrift but a waster.”

John Avanzini (November, 1990 Praise-a-Thon )

"Do you want a hundredfold return on your money? Give and let God multiply it back to you. He urges his supporters, "Invest heavily in God; the returns are staggering, ... "Every man who invests in the Gospel has a right to expect the staggering return of one hundredfold."

Kenneth Copeland (Laws of Prosperity , pg.67)

“Now the Lord told us to go into the world and preach the gospel to every creature, didn't He? It costs billions of dollars to do that, between the satellite communication hookup and everything! Well, how come we haven't done it yet? Because we've lost verse 4, we've lost verse 5, we've lost verse 7. Every once in a while we get blessed on verse 8. But just think if you got blessed 30, 60 or 100 fold on verse 4; 30, 60 or 100 fold on verse 5; 30, 60 or 100 fold on verse 7… every time you give God $50, He gives you $5000. Every time you give Him $100, He gives you $10,000. Every time you give Him $1000, He gives you $100,000. Every time you give him $100,000, $10 million. Before you know it, that building is yours, because they will sell it for the right price. You pick the denomination, God picks the multiplication.”

Jesse Duplantis (TBN, September 21, 1998)

“People have said that it’s selfish to ask God to give a hundredfold return on the seeds sown in the financial realm. No it’s selfish not to expect the hundredfold return. ... The anointing is on the seed. If you will divest, God will invest.”

Rod Parsley (God’s Answer to Insufficient Funds, 1992 pps 56-57)

Lets at the passage and find out if these people are telling the truth.

And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine,
Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow: And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up. And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth: But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away. And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit. And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred. And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables? The sower soweth the word. And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts. And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended. And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word, And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful. And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred. Mark 4:2-22.

Now from this passage we find several different scenarios about sowing. According to the word of faithers this is how we get a return on money. The seed here according to them is money and depending on what kind of ground we sow into will determine what kind of money we will get in return.

Jesus explained the parable in private to say that the seed was the Word. He said the ground was the condition of hearts that the Word fell on. Then as far as I am concerned Jesus shut the door on this false doctrine by telling the disciples that because of the deceitfulness of riches some loose the Word.

If riches can choke out the Word then how can these false prophets use this parable to promote riches? How can they take something that is written in plain view and twist it in order to stuff their pockets?

Part 2 will be posted later on tonight or in the morning.

Greg

12-08-2003, 05:56 PM

Eurogal,

"Semper Fi" is short for "Always Faithful." It is the US Marine Corps motto of which I am one.

Everyone else
Can anyone find the time during this goat rodeo to answer my question of, "How do you know you are saved?" or is it no one can, or perhaps unwilling because they would have to admit that faith is necessary??????????

If you truly want to talk "faith" then lets talk faith, otherwise all brother Donny is doing is soothing the itching ears of those who oppose the "faith message" which is different than where the "movement" has wondered but since your eyes are blinded you cannot see this. Prove me wrong, let's discuss faith, not roast those who claim to have it!

If the finger pointing persists then I will bow out and you will "have won" but what you have won isn't really clear. You claim to want to discuss faith but you openly show you want to discredit individuals and with a vengence.

It is sad you feel that you are appointed by God to "clean up" the body of Christ. When one feels they can carry on a discussion decently and in order as God would have us do then I will join in but untill then I will leave you to your ranting as was common among the religious leaders of Jesus' time.

SEMPER FI!!!!!!!

Little Lamb

12-08-2003, 06:02 PM

Greg,

We are saved by faith alone. All Donny is doing is exposing false teachers.

Benny Hinn, in one of Donny's posts said that Jesus would come to one of his crusades. I can show you biblically that it's false. Matthew 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

So you see, Benny isn't being honest about Jesus showing up for one of his crusades.

Greg

12-08-2003, 06:41 PM

I never said that some of the people or the things he has said isn't biblically in error. Even Oral Roberts made a fool of himself by speaking by the fleah and not by the Spirit by saying if he didn't receive 1 million dollars by a certain time that the Lord would take him home. His date wasn;t met and he is still here so he missed it. Thankfully we have the choice to forgive.

I originally thought we were going to discuss "faith", but instead it is a goat rodeo in which many take pleasure in.

I can never find pleasure when someone within the body of Christ misses it or falls. We are to pray for them not run around shouting like chicken little. I am sure that Rev. Donny and the rest who are joining in with him in his attack are not perfect themselves.

Like I said in another post, I could start with the Pentecostal shortcomings of the doctrine of men which are taught as from the Lord which are far from it, but I won't. I only mention it because they are imperfect too, as is the rest of the body of Christ!!

If it is the "faith movement" today, who will be the target tomorrow???? Once judgmentalism sets in it is very hard to uproot. Remeber the yeast of the Pharisees????

And lastly, can he not take the time amidst his "exposing" to answer my simple question????

kevingaily

12-08-2003, 06:46 PM

Greg,

You are most correct in saying that faith is a key matter, a cardinal virtue. That wasn't the real issue here. Noone is denying that. What we're getting at is that people think that we can simply get whatever WE want by "claiming it." Whether it's power, prosperity, or health. All I'm saying, and the others, I believe, is that while asking for God for things is fine, and even commanded at times, it can be abused. Look at this scripture I'm about to list so you can see where I'm going with what I've been saying. I hope it clears things up. I'm NOT saying that we can please God without faith, just that people are many times selfish and full of self-gain. If I was to ask God to bless me so I could be more of a blessing to others, ie. the prayer of Jabez, that has some merit even though if one is not faithful in the little things, I doubt God will give more. Here's the scripture:

James 4

Submit Yourselves to God

1What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you? 2You want something but don't get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. 3When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.
4You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. 5Or do you think Scripture says without reason that the spirit he caused to live in us envies intensely?[1] 6But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says:
"God opposes the proud
but gives grace to the humble."

See verse three. Based on that fact that they were carnal God calls them an adulterous people.

We see much of this type of preaching that so reminds me of people I know who read horoscopes and call psychics. The are seeking prosperity, power, position, and other self-centered stuff. Yet Jesus says we are to lay down our lives take up our cross and follow after him. He says that if we love our lives we'll lose then but if we lose our lives we'll find it. The word life in the Greek means the will. When we lay down our will, and desire God's will he will give us the correct desires. These desires which are according to His soverign will, he will answer. Now... Sure God may answer our wants, but not always. It reminds me of how the Israelites cried for flesh in the desert. God gave them their request, but at what cost?!

Psalm 106
14 But lusted exceedingly in the wilderness, and tempted God in the desert.
15 And he gave them their request; but sent leanness into their soul.

I think we need to check our motives when we ask for things. Are the things we ask for going to bring glory to God? If not, then we may not want them! I know that God is soverign and in control. He knows what's best for me. He may choose to heal someone, or to take them. He may chose to bless me with a real good job, but only if it's in his plan for me. When Jesus made his request he ended it with, "nevertheless not as I will, but thine will be done." What was the purpose of his saying this? Was it lack of faith? NO He was saying I may want one thing, but ultimately I want what you want me to do.

Does this make sense? You got great faith, AWESOME!!!!!!! That doesn't mean I can call a number and claim my new car in Jesus name. You say that that's never happened? Well....I saw it on Marilyn Hickey. Morris Cerrello(sp) had a 1-900 number to call for prayer. One preacher said if we give a seed gift of 1000 God will give you ten times that back, because God wants you to be rich. One preacher boasted that he was so rich(monetarily) that he made Solomon look poor. That's sick. He was making promises to widows, and the down and out that if they gave they would be blessed, and it was all about his own lusts. The list goes on.

Like it or not, these types of things are rampant in the word of faith community. If it was one or two, that would be one thing, but there are many names comming out in this thread, and many more that could be named, enough to show that something is really amiss here. We can't just simply say it's not big deal when so much is going wrong. It's not about judging these people, but looking at the validity of the doctrine they are touting.

Please read Job. It's God's word. He saw fit to make it part of scripture for a reason. It really applies to what's being discussed here.

No matter what faith I have, if I'm asking amiss, Satan may be the one who answers that request. It may be destructive to me or others. So I make my request, but say to God, hey If you don't think it's right, or if the timing is off, then no problem. I rest in you and trust in you even if I never get anything else from you. You saved my soul and that is more than I could ever repay. If you do more, then it's icing on the cake. I believe God will take care of me. I call it faith.

Greg

12-08-2003, 10:47 PM

That wasn't the real issue here. Noone is denying that. What we're getting at is that people think that we can simply get whatever WE want by "claiming it.

Then you weren't coming close to discussing the "Faith message" but was wanting to expose those who by their own desires purpose to exploit the "faith message." You presume that these represent "the faith movement." Sorry, it is just these that get the attention.

The true "Faith Message" clearly begins with the fact we in ourselves are nothing, all we are and have is from God. If we have placed our faith in God then we will desire to serve Him and with each and every passing moment we consider ourselves less and less. God gives to us sustenance for "He supplies all of our needs according to His riches in Glory" and "He delights in the prosperity of His servants." He gives us an abundance above and beyond our needs so that we have to give. God is not a counterfieter and relys on us to have faith in Him and give as He directs.

Yes, we must not ask amiss, we must ask according to the word of God. I see in scripture where we can ask in prayer for a financial need or even a desire to have more so we can give more. I can also find where we can ask for healing and receive it but it must be by faith. It must all be done neatly and in order and
most importantly without self gain.

Sadly there are those who project the message of faith as a message of self gain and apparently most participating in this thread have only witnessed this portion of "the faith movement" and consider all to be as such. I am afraid then you are wrong. Just as I would be if I judged all (insert denomination of choice)
off the one's I have encountered which were obviously errant concerning scriptual doctrine.

You say that that's never happened?

No, I was the first to admit that there were those who were errant in the use of faith. Thankfully everyone opposed to the faith message make no errors or at least none have admitted to it.

No matter what faith I have, if I'm asking amiss, Satan may be the one who answers that request. It may be destructive to me or others. So I make my request, but say to God, hey If you don't think it's right, or if the timing is off, then no problem. I rest in you and trust in you even if I never get anything else from you. You saved my soul and that is more than I could ever repay. If you do more, then it's icing on the cake. I believe God will take care of me. I call it faith.

I agree fully! I also believe God will take care of me also. I know this because I have His promises within His Word so I don't need to ask Him if it is right and as for the timing aspect, well, I ask in prayer and believe I received it when I prayed and simply remain thankfull until I receive it. If our fathers here on earth know how to give good gifts how much more our Father in heaven??!!!!! The woman with the issue of blood didn't question the timing nor the correctness of her expectation. She simply spoke that which she knew to be true concerning her healing!

Jesus said these signs shall follow those who believe, they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall be healed. Do you believe in this practice that our Lord proclaims we are to be doing?????

Like it or not, these types of things are rampant in the word of faith community.

I agree again. But just because a city has a certain amount of murderers running amuck within it's limits doesn't mean everyone in the city is a murderer. I believe those who oppose those posed as heretics are blinded by judgment and simply judge everyone who claims to accept and follow the faith message as though they are as errant as the rest. Not all do but since you are not even willing to stop and listen you can not nor will ever see the truth that lies within the "faith message."

I have read Job many times and yes it does apply here. Job never questioned God but he questioned his own faith. He sought to make it right with God. Unlike those around him who apparently had a form of religion and without faith tried desperately to get Job to drop his faith and no longer trust in God. Thankfully Job stood within his faith and held to that which he new to be true and because of his faith God prospered him in health and in riches!!!!! Maybe I am not the one who needs to read Job, again.

The difference I see in our individual faith is that yours is not one of expectancy. Jesus was continually looking for that expectancy. He would almost always ask one He was about to "bless" if they believed. Not that He could heal them nor that He might heal them but if they believed if He would heal them! This is true faith. Faith is the substance of things "hoped" for and not seen. Faith says you have it before you see it because you expect it. Having this expectancy is not heresey but biblical. Blind Bartemeus was a good example of the expectancy we are to have. When he heard Jesus was approaching he cried out. Not for pity but because he knew Jesus would heal him!!!! When the disciples attempted to stiffle his faith and shut him up he cried out even more the louder!!! We all know what happened because he exercised his expectancy in faith!!!!!

We are told that the "just" live "by faith." How can one truly live an abundant life without an expectancy?? Your presented your faith as one of, "God, you saved me and if you care to give me anymore-great! And if not I will make the best of it I can and trudge along in this life you have burdened me to bear." How sad this doesn't line up with the Word of God.

SEMPER FI!!!

Greg

12-08-2003, 11:14 PM

As for the posts listing those who preach the "hundred fold blessing" I fully agree that most all of this teaching is in error but then again, this particular prosperity message is not biblical and only a minor part of the true message of faith.

I had said earlier I would respond to the post concerning their accusations but since I am not afforded the time (due to the vast amounts of posts, some of which have been taken out of context) I will not. It is obvious that those who oppose anything to do with "faith" do not care what I may have to say for they whether directly or not must consider me as those they judge as heretics.

I was wrong in thinking that there may be those here who are as the Bereans were, wanting to search the scriptures to prove someone right but this isn't the case, at least in this thread. Judgmenatism and hard-heartedness abound.

I have attempted to discuss scripture but very little has been presented from "your side" and it was weak at best which clearly show most sopend more time studying things other than the Bible. Perhaps if one was to spend less time head hunting and did something more beneficial then we would have less preachers "runnuing amuck" for the body of Christ would be better able to minister to one another.

With this I leave you with your doctrines and theologies. I would like to say it has been at the least fun but I cannot.

YOU WIN!!!

SEMPER FI!!!!!

Doma

12-09-2003, 03:53 AM

we cannot wholey denounce an entire movement of God. Nor can we wholey denounce an entire belief system completely, without going thru each doctrine piece by piece.

My favorite saying is, " a brocken clock is right 2 times a day."

If a broken clock can be right twice a day, certainly errored people.

here is a bit from my baptism page, only 1 of the 7 biblical baptisms:

http://www.kingdom-gospel.com/baptisms.html

7th Baptism - Baptism into the Cloud

1 Cor 10: MKJV
1 ¶ And, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea.
2 And all were baptized to Moses in the cloud and in the sea,

Let's read about this baptism:

Num 9: HNV/WEB:ME
9:15 On the day that the tabernacle was raised up, the cloud covered the tabernacle, even the Tent of the Testimony: and at evening it was over the tabernacle as it were the appearance of fire, until morning. 9:16 So it was continually. The cloud covered it, and the appearance of fire by night. 9:17 Whenever the cloud was taken up from over the Tent, then after that the children of Israel traveled; and in the place where the cloud remained, there the children of Israel encamped. 9:18 At the commandment of the LORD, the children of Israel traveled, and at the commandment of the LORD they encamped. As long as the cloud remained on the tabernacle they remained encamped. 9:19 When the cloud stayed on the tabernacle many days, then the children of Israel kept the LORD's command, and didn't travel. 9:20 Sometimes the cloud was a few days on the tabernacle; then according to the commandment of the LORD they remained encamped, and according to the commandment of the LORD they traveled. 9:21 Sometimes the cloud was from evening until morning; and when the cloud was taken up in the morning, they traveled: or by day and by night, when the cloud was taken up, they traveled. 9:22 Whether it was two days, or a month, or a year that the cloud stayed on the tabernacle, remaining on it, the children of Israel remained encamped, and didn't travel; but when it was taken up, they traveled. 9:23 At the commandment of the LORD they encamped, and at the commandment of the LORD they traveled. They kept the LORD's command, at the commandment of the LORD by Moses.

Being baptized in the cloud means you follow God when ever or where ever He leads. Earlier in the baptism of fire, I mentioned the Holiness Camps. Denominations are born when someone makes a camp upon the last truth God revealed to them, and decided to stay there instead of continuing on. That's why I like to say "A broken clock is right twice a day." Stale denominations and churches still have abundant revelation concerning the specific truth they are camped on. Even tho they have failed to grow in other areas.

What does that mean for individual believers? We must not be boxed in by "camp" mentality. We must consider that others may or may not have blazed other truths we have not yet grasped in God's Word. We must be teachable. We must also recognize Jesus as Lord, directing our life, and as King, reigning our life.

Isa 28: MKJV
9 ¶ Whom shall He teach knowledge? And whom shall He make to understand doctrine? Those weaned from the milk and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be on precept, precept on precept; line on line, line on line; here a little, there a little;
11 for with stammering lips and another tongue He will speak to this people.
12 To whom He said, This is the rest; cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing. Yet they were not willing to hear.
13 But the Word of the LORD was to them precept on precept, precept on precept; line on line, line on line; here a little, there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken and snared and taken.

------------------------

The "Faith" camp, is not to be wholey condemned, Martin Luther started something wonderful, but he did not wholey come out of Babylon, he clung to many things we now reject. Neither have we ourselves been baptized into the cloud and are fully out of spiritual babylon.
We must not be so critical in our judgments.

-------------

http://www.kingdom-gospel.com/tenet.html

15. Everything I teach and believe is by faith. God made it so that we need the church and ministers to teach us doctrine. The Bible is not meant to be a handi-book of easy to read doctrines. The doctrines must be dug out and taught. For this reason, ministers will receive a stricter judgment. While many of my beliefs are accepted thru most of christendom and many of my more "rare" teachings are from a handful of ministers, I have gleaned many truths from many different sources. One of my favorite sayings is "a broken clock is right 2 times a day". One of the baptisms in the Bible is called the Baptism into the Cloud (1 Cor 10:2). This baptism is God's calling the church to follow after Him. This is often results in the restoration of doctrine and theology. The Reformation is a prime example of this. What often happens tho, is man follows God to a lost truth then makes a camp there, refusing to follow God further. We can glean truths from such stale camps, but should continue to follow God ourselves.

Isa 28:10: For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

1 Cor 13:12: For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

1 Cor 2: LITV
2 For I decided not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ, and Him having been crucified.

-----------------------------

The baptism of the cloud is going from glory to glory, camp to camp, gaining more and more revelation. The WOF was one camp, they had some truth, and yes many stayed there, thus leaving the cloud, when the cloud moved on, and those that did not follow the cloud took the doctrines to unbiblical extremes, but nonetheless the Lord brought the church there and there was relevant info provided.

----------------

The Bible declares that men of God will be rewarded and/or punished for their work, and yes many WOF ministers have led people to Christ. Whether you believe that or not, and the Lord will credit it to these men of God.

1 Cor 3:
8: Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

kevingaily

12-09-2003, 07:51 AM

Originally posted by Greg
Then you weren't coming close to discussing the "Faith message" but was wanting to expose those who by their own desires purpose to exploit the "faith message." You presume that these represent "the faith movement." Sorry, it is just these that get the attention.

The true "Faith Message" clearly begins with the fact we in ourselves are nothing, all we are and have is from God. If we have placed our faith in God then we will desire to serve Him and with each and every passing moment we consider ourselves less and less. God gives to us sustenance for "He supplies all of our needs according to His riches in Glory" and "He delights in the prosperity of His servants." He gives us an abundance above and beyond our needs so that we have to give. God is not a counterfieter and relys on us to have faith in Him and give as He directs.

Yes, we must not ask amiss, we must ask according to the word of God. I see in scripture where we can ask in prayer for a financial need or even a desire to have more so we can give more. I can also find where we can ask for healing and receive it but it must be by faith. It must all be done neatly and in order and
most importantly without self gain.

Sadly there are those who project the message of faith as a message of self gain and apparently most participating in this thread have only witnessed this portion of "the faith movement" and consider all to be as such. I am afraid then you are wrong. Just as I would be if I judged all (insert denomination of choice)
off the one's I have encountered which were obviously errant concerning scriptual doctrine.

No, I was the first to admit that there were those who were errant in the use of faith. Thankfully everyone opposed to the faith message make no errors or at least none have admitted to it.

I agree fully! I also believe God will take care of me also. I know this because I have His promises within His Word so I don't need to ask Him if it is right and as for the timing aspect, well, I ask in prayer and believe I received it when I prayed and simply remain thankfull until I receive it. If our fathers here on earth know how to give good gifts how much more our Father in heaven??!!!!! The woman with the issue of blood didn't question the timing nor the correctness of her expectation. She simply spoke that which she knew to be true concerning her healing!

Jesus said these signs shall follow those who believe, they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall be healed. Do you believe in this practice that our Lord proclaims we are to be doing?????

I agree again. But just because a city has a certain amount of murderers running amuck within it's limits doesn't mean everyone in the city is a murderer. I believe those who oppose those posed as heretics are blinded by judgment and simply judge everyone who claims to accept and follow the faith message as though they are as errant as the rest. Not all do but since you are not even willing to stop and listen you can not nor will ever see the truth that lies within the "faith message."

I have read Job many times and yes it does apply here. Job never questioned God but he questioned his own faith. He sought to make it right with God. Unlike those around him who apparently had a form of religion and without faith tried desperately to get Job to drop his faith and no longer trust in God. Thankfully Job stood within his faith and held to that which he new to be true and because of his faith God prospered him in health and in riches!!!!! Maybe I am not the one who needs to read Job, again.

The difference I see in our individual faith is that yours is not one of expectancy. Jesus was continually looking for that expectancy. He would almost always ask one He was about to "bless" if they believed. Not that He could heal them nor that He might heal them but if they believed if He would heal them! This is true faith. Faith is the substance of things "hoped" for and not seen. Faith says you have it before you see it because you expect it. Having this expectancy is not heresey but biblical. Blind Bartemeus was a good example of the expectancy we are to have. When he heard Jesus was approaching he cried out. Not for pity but because he knew Jesus would heal him!!!! When the disciples attempted to stiffle his faith and shut him up he cried out even more the louder!!! We all know what happened because he exercised his expectancy in faith!!!!!

We are told that the "just" live "by faith." How can one truly live an abundant life without an expectancy?? Your presented your faith as one of, "God, you saved me and if you care to give me anymore-great! And if not I will make the best of it I can and trudge along in this life you have burdened me to bear." How sad this doesn't line up with the Word of God.

SEMPER FI!!!

Greg,

A couple things....

First of all, please be assured that I'm not being a Pharisee to you. You are my brother in Christ. While I may not agree with you, it doesn't mean I'm against you as a person. Do you have any siblings? I disagree with my family and they with me, it doesn't make me a hater of them or some beast. Nither do they hate or dislike me. I just wanted to clarify that. I love you as my own brother!!!!! This isn't an attempt to divide or hurt.

That said, I want to address a couple things, so we are on the same page. I'm not saying that all I want is salvation and don't want God to answer my prayers. You took this to an extreem. Probably because you aren't trying to understand me, but rather to prepare your defences, so to speak. What is meant by this, is that I realize that God doesn't owe me anything. I was bought with a price and am not my own. Therefore I want to glorify God in my life and body. So my focus is more on the purposes of God rather that my wants and desires. While I ask for wants, I realize that there is no guarantee I'll get them. I'm prepared to have little or a lot, whatever He wants. Paul said I know how to be based or abound. To have a lot and a little. His focus wasn't on the things he had, but on Christ, and His glory. So what I'm saying is indeed Biblical. Faith is only good to the degree that it is according to the will of God. I've stood in faith on many things....including winning a certain woman for a wife, yet it wasn't His will. Needless to say, it never happened. I have been burnt many times because I wanted something and stood in faith for God to give it, only to have those desires dashed because they weren't God's plan for me. Therefore, I've learned to make my requests, and leave them there. If it's His will, then He will do it. If not, then I don't want to get burned because I was praying amiss. Look at this scripture:

James 4
14whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away. 15Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that." 16But now you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.

So saying if the Lord wills, or not my will but thine isn't a lack of faith or hope. It's just realizing that it does matter what God wants first and foremost. Yes he love to give good gifts, but look at the world. Look at the body of Christ in other areas. To them good gifts may be extra grace to face death. It could be grace to stand in the face of persecution. Only here in the West we take it to mean financial prosperity. Not to say God may not bless in this area. I'm not saying having plenty is bad either.

You say, you agree that some are bad but we shouldn't judge the "movement" by the acts of a few. Agreed. However, Many names were given in this thread, not just a few. Also, the names given are the prominant names of the word of faith movement, not folks on the periphery. Some of those names are ones you had yourself mentioned as being good in the begining. So you are adjusting your position to distance yourself from ones you had previously spoken well of after light was brought on some of their teachings.

Now, at this point I want to make another clarification. I'm not saying all these folks do is wrong. Nor am I standing as their judge. They may well be saved and on their way to heaven. That doesn't mean I shouldn't expose what I feel to be wrong in their doctrine, however.

You still don't agree with me? Hey, I told you I love and accept you as my brother. :D :cool: It's not an attack, just sharing and dialoguing with ya. Iron sharpens iron. We're sharpening each other. That's what this forum is all about. We may disagree, at times even passionately. That doesn't mean we don't love and respect one another. I don't want you to feel out of place here and not share your thoughts. I've agreed with many things you've said in the past. So don't sweat it. Just think about what I said. A preacher once told me that when he listened to another person preach/teach/share, that he treated it like eating a watermelon. When eating a watermelon you eat the meat of the fruit, but spit out the seeds and throw away the rind! :D That's because, he said, there's always the tendency to be some opinion mixed in with the word.

Take care & have a great day!!!! :)

Donny Short

12-09-2003, 10:24 AM

Greg please understand that I am not pointing any fingers at you. It is not my intention to point fingers at the laity rather to help show false teachings that people are following.

I am all for Biblical faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God.

Also I am not promoting perfection, as you pointed all of us have mistakes none of us is clean without the Blood of Christ applied to our lives and hearts. However mistakes is not what I am talking about either.

There is a vast difference between mistakes and even moral failure than doctrinal error. My concern is the root of the "faith" message that Hagin, Copeland and their preacher followers teach.

Moral failure will not cause me to fall. If a preacher falls in sin and is taken in a fault I will follow the Biblical command to pray for and restore that person. I have avoided pointing fingers at those who have fallen morally since I started preaching about this.

When you teach that Jesus was born again in hell and died spiritually then you are giving a false message about salvation. This is the core of what leads to the rest of their teachings. I have asked time and time again for scriptures to settle this point and have yet to be given even one.

I am one who only wants Gods will in my life. Sometimes asking for Gods will in your life will bring pain and it will bring you to your knees. Let me give you an example from my personal life.

This year has been one of the toughest that my wife and I have ever had. This has been a year of heartbreak and bitter tears. But God showed me it was coming, he warned me ahead of time. He did not take us out of the fire but he let us know the fire was coming.

A year or so ago God gave me a dream. I saw my wife and myself standing in a hospital. I saw myself breakdown then next my wife broke down. When I woke up two names were in my mind and I knew they were going to die. I told my wife that we were going to loose two very dear people to us. I told her my aunt Shelby and her mother were going to die. Even though I never saw these two in the dream when I woke up I knew these were the two.

About a week or so after this we found out my aunt had cancer. My son was going to spend a week with her in the summer and she was put in the hospital the day he got there. A few weeks after that we found out my wifes mother was having some serious problems with her diabetes.

We wanted God to heal them, I even prayed for God to heal them. But I knew it was useless. My aunt meant everything to me. She is the reason I wound up a Christian and a minister. When I was a little kid I knew God had called me to the ministry and my aunt and her husband took me to church. My own family wouldn’t take me, but they were faithful to take me and to teach me. In my minds eye I can still see where we sat in that Church. That Pastor was the one that God would use to help mold and train me. He was such a powerful man of God.

One night I was in Ohio and felt I needed to call my wife and remind her to get ready for her mothers passing. When I called she was so happy. For the first time in months the doctors had given them hope. They told her she might pull out of it. I told her that her mother was not going to pull out and that she needed to make sure her mothers affairs were in order. My wife broke and yelled at me and asked me if I could not let her have even a little hope. When I told her that I felt like my heart was being ripped out.

People who hate me used this occasion to attack me. They told my wife not to worry that God was going to heal her mother. There was one who even tried to get my wife to leave and divorce me over this.

To make a long story short we buried both of them within two months of each other. First my aunt, then her mother. Both of these people knew the Lord and are home with him today. If they had the option of being healed or going home I am sure they would choose to go home.

This did something that I did not expect though. God used this to open our compassion more for hurting people. That is who I minister to. The Church and the world are full of broken and wounded people when I look at them I can’t hold back the tears. When my wife looks at them she can’t hold back the tears.

You see you cannot preach a message you haven’t lived. I am sure you are aware that God uses our wounds and scares to give hope to others with the same wounds and scars.

I know what it is to hurt, and to be in pain. I have tasted bitter tears and tasted my own blood. I know what it feels like to lay down in bed and ask God to take me home.

But my testimony is this. God is faithful, he keeps his children through even the darkest of days. His hand is not shaky he can hold me even though all hell may be crashing down around me.

The word of faith movement wants to deal with the surface issues. It is mostly about show. Bigger homes, nicer cars, designer cloths etc. But God longs to heal the inner man. Inside the heart is where God longs to work. Dealing with those issues is messy and it never makes for good TV.

I believe in healing 110%, I believe in giving 110%, I believe in Gods mercy 110% I believe that everything that was available to the early Church is still in operation today.

Bur I also believe that everything must be validated with scripture and anything that can’t be proven by scripture must be rejected outright.

I am going to quit posting the other stuff I had on these people for a while until you understand it is not a personal attack against you it is rather exposing false doctrine that will cause a person to go to hell if followed.

swtsnshyn

12-10-2003, 01:15 PM

Some of those names are ones you had yourself mentioned as being good in the begining. So you are adjusting your position to distance yourself from ones you had previously spoken well of after light was brought on some of their teachings.
Kevin,

Greg has not changed his position on or attitude towards the people that he mentioned in the beginning.

God Bless!!
Dawn
Shining brightly for Jesus :)

picard

12-10-2003, 02:49 PM

Please don't call anyone "Reverend," except God! Thank you!

There is always the counterfeit before the true!

kevingaily

12-10-2003, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by swtsnshyn
Kevin,

Greg has not changed his position on or attitude towards the people that he mentioned in the beginning.

God Bless!!
Dawn
Shining brightly for Jesus :)

You're right. I guess my point was that by defending the movement, then, when so many prominent of the teachers are doing some dubious stuff it looked bad and names that may have been used FOR the movement have been disqualified because of the problems with doctrine.

Did that make sense or am I just rambling:D I just got finished with that mega post in the other area and I'm seeing spots. :D

There is some good coming out of that movement, to which I said to Greg. I told him I don't disagree with all they teach, just some of the principles.

I've said all I can on this subject. ! :cool:

North

12-10-2003, 09:51 PM

Originally posted by picard
Please don't call anyone "Reverend," except God! Thank you!

There is always the counterfeit before the true!

Greetings Picard,

I understand what is behind the idea of not calling someone Reverend but I think it is really more trendy now-a-days to voice concern over that although I feel your motives are sincere. Folks say only God is worthy of the title. Let us look at this...

Reverend means:

"Worthy of reverance. A title of respect for a clergyman".

Reverance means:

"A feeling of profound respect".

Now, there is nothing wrong with using the title as it has come to be as a sign of respect for a clergyman anymore than calling a Senator..'Senator' or a Colonel...'Colonel'.

Folks say ....."ah but only He is worthy of profound respect". This is certainly true but let's logically look at this. Someone corrected me the other day when I said a certain man was a 'good guy'. She used the same reasoning to say 'only He is good'. And so we would have to wipe certain words from our vocabulary such as 'excellent' because only 'He is excellent'. Which is also true. Or no more 'Honest Abe' because only 'He is honest'.

In other words we need to be careful not to become legalistic and pharisitical. We could end up developing so....many rules....

North (who does not use Reverend)

picard

12-11-2003, 02:35 PM

North, Jesus reproved the vanity shown in coveting the title of rabbi, or master. Such a title, He declared, belonged not to men, but to Christ. We are all brethren of one Father. Jesus impressed the people that they were to give no man a title of honor indicating his control of their conscience or their faith. If Christ were on earth today, surrounded by those who bear the title of "Reverend" would He not repeat His warning, "Neither be ye called masters; for one is your Master, even Christ"? The Scriptures declare of God, "Holy and reverend is His name." Ps.111:9. To what human being is such a title befitting?

It is not men whom we are to exalt and worship; it is God, the only true and living God, to whom our worship and reverence are due. According to the teaching of the Scriptures, it dishonors God to address ministers as "Reverend." NO mortal has any right to attach this to his name or to the name of any other human being. It belongs only to God, to distinguish Him from every other being. Those who lay claim to this title take to themselves God's holy honor. They have no right to the stolen word, whatever their position may be. "Holy and reverend is His name." We dishonor God when we use this word where it does not belong!

North

12-11-2003, 10:22 PM

Originally posted by picard
According to the teaching of the Scriptures, it dishonors God to address ministers as "Reverend." NO mortal has any right to attach this to his name or to the name of any other human being. It belongs only to God, to distinguish Him from every other being. Those who lay claim to this title take to themselves God's holy honor. They have no right to the stolen word, whatever their position may be. "Holy and reverend is His name." We dishonor God when we use this word where it does not belong!

I disagree and I guess we can leave it at that. Using your logic we should not call anyone Mister (form of Master), 'good' because only one is Good, excellent because only one is 'excellent', etc., etc. It dishonors God to call someone 'good' when true 'goodness' is found only in God. My example logically follows from yours.

Seriously, you may want to check out the scriptural quotes by brother Oscar on the other thread that dealing with honor.

North

John Oscar

12-19-2003, 09:53 AM

North, I'll do it for you.
Here is my original post on this subject.
Blessings!

My credentials card also has Rev. John Oscar. Occasionally people call me "Rev" or pastor, but it's usually in fun.

Although I agree with the comments made by several people concerning the use of titles promoting pride in the clergy, one of the problems with the modern church is that their is no respect for spiritual authority.
Generally speaking, if a person was evaluated using the charactor assessment that Paul gives in 1 Tim 3 and Titus 1 prior to being ordained, then their character should be above getting big heads over titles.

Rom 13:1-5
13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.

And,

1 Tim 5:17

17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.

I would say we should use the titles that the person in authority asks us to use. When I was in the army, I did not call my battalion commander "Kevin", I called him sir, or Colonal Kennedy.
Even though I'm a pastor in my church, I don't address my pastor by his first name, but by "Pastor", or "Pastor Amos"

Likewise, clergy in our midst should be given the honor that is due them. If the world can follow this simple rule, then why can't the church?

Blessings
John O