Theological Hair Splitting & Damnation

[North]

It has been interesting to watch my fellow evangelicals line up to slap one another on the back in self congratulatory "Thank you Lord that I am not like one of them {Catholics}" style. :devil: I think there is a story in the bible about that but I digress. If scripture could support a Catholic position we can simply down play it or twist scripture to fit our view. :cool:

At any rate. What most folks will not see or are myopic about is that scripture can seem to support a number of postions. We get a bit self righteous when we try to assert that one side is damned because they believe a certain way. I think some of the uncharitable folks who believe Catholics are damned may be surprised to discover Catholics ahead of them in line in heaven. Or to paraphrase a Christian popular contemporary song ...find they sent some lumber up to build a shack in heaven where their Catholic neighbor has a mansion.

I have seen this stuff time and time again. Chuck Smith leans toward Arminianism and discredits Calvinism as not correct in terms of scripture. Calvinists discredit Arminians as not being correct in terms of scripture and feel that Arminianism emphasizes man's will over God's and weakening God's sovereignty. I think James White (staunch Calvinist) referred to Arminianism as "warmed over Roman Catholic semi Pelagianism".

Many felt that Walter Martin should have included the Seventh Day Adventists as a cult in his book Kingdom of the Cults along with the Mormons and JW's. He was criticized for not doing so. Of course while some consider 7th Day Adventists aberrant, the SDA busy themselves with the Catholic Church is the 'Whore of Babylon' stuff (I used to date a SDA).

Others slam the Church of Christ as aberrant and call them Cambellites. I had a friend who was CofC and used to be fit to be tied every time that Hank Hanegraaff would call CofC Cambellites.

Most of these folks can proof text their own theological point. The problem comes in when they get so puffed up with pride and believe that they are God's mouth piece and those with the other perspective are damned to everlasting hell. We can disagree but realize that the other person believes they have a theological perspective that is correct and could as easily poke holes in ours. Dave for instance has done an excellent job in demonstrating his position theologically, scripturally, and historically. Does not mean that I consider him right. As an aside I think the military has done an excellent job of a pluralistic....no compromise...ministry model.

We frankly, do not completely understand the bible otherwise there would be ***NO DEBATE*** between Arminianism & Calvinism. For folks who do not know these terms you fall in one or the other category (some might be Open Theists but likely not many here). There would not be a thousand different interpretations of the passage from Hebrews that seems to assert folks can lose their faith, etc. We will have to ask Christ when we get there. Unfortunately, some of us may be spitefully and in small minded mean spirited fashion assuming that we are there and others are not only to have our puffed up ego deflated as we discover the guy in front of us is a Roman Catholic (maybe even the Pope) talking to Jesus as He says "Well done thou good and faithful servant".


North

[Buzzard]

I know you did not mean too do so;
but you just did what you accuse others of doing

Originally posted by North

Most of these folks can proof text their own theological point. The problem comes in when they get so puffed up with pride and believe that they are God's mouth piece

North

I only know of 1 or 2 organizations that claim thisbelieve that they are God's mouth piece
Catholics for one
so you must feel they, the Catholics; are wellll--JustThe problem comes in when they get so puffed up with pride

To disagree with someones interpretation
Mr North is not being puffed up,
nor is it Hateful

[cdhale]

Originally posted by North
Others slam the Church of Christ as aberrant and call them Cambellites. I had a friend who was CofC and used to be fit to be tied every time that Hank Hanegraaff would call CofC Cambellites.



Ok, get it right...
it is

Campbellite

:D

And you know...we have probably earned some of the negative comments. However, I do think it is difficult and wrong to lump everyone from a group together when speaking of their beliefs. In the COC, I know of varying opinions on many things. Some deserve the mirth and ridicule thrown their way. Others are more orthodox and correct than Hanegraaff.

btw, just to make sure... I am agreeing with you

clint

[Doma]

thats why you condemn teachings, not movements of God or denominations

[Eurogal]

Doma said : ……”thats why you condemn teachings, not movements of God or denominations”

In essence I would agree with you. To attack the issues, to correct the facts, to straighten the knick in the principles, and to expose the apostacy from the straight and narrow back onto it again is far better than just attacking people for being who they are.

However……

Spiritual fornication is idolatry. Each century past has pointed to the darkness of Vatican Roman rule causing worship of the Mass, Mary, Saints dead, and images. Besides putting up man made traditions as equal to the infallible Word of God. The story of Jezebel and the prophets of Baal is analogue to what the rule of the Apostate Church of Rome (also refered to as Babylon the Great mother of harlots) has developed into. I hurt when I need to print that but truth is at time sharp and pierces the mark and sinews of decaying life.

Doma, I would gladly read from you your exegesis on harlots imagery in the Book of Revelations. The matter is covered in Rev chapters 2; 14; 17; 18; and in 21th chapter.

Eurogal

[countryroad]

North

At any rate. What most folks will not see or are myopic about is that scripture can seem to support a number of postions.


:hi:


I believe that scripture can be "rightly divided" because we are exhorted to do so.


There are many absolute, divine decrees of the Lord, written in the word that are not negotiable.


Find those and everything else falls into place.


The mediatorship of Jesus is one of the keys as well as the truth of the body of Christ and the priesthood of the believer.


The New Covenant has been ratified in the blood of Jesus and there will be no change in it anymore than there can be change in the one who sits at the right hand of the majesty on high.


He is become our salvation and our righteousness. Our wisdom is seated at the right hand of God, and not in any earthly headquarters or office that would seek to personify the Lordship of Christ Jesus.



:doodle:

[countryroad]

Eurogal

To attack the issues, to correct the facts, to straighten the knick in the principles, and to expose the apostacy from the straight and narrow back onto it again is far better than just attacking people for being who they are.




Good point.



:shake:




I hope that you don't get a lot of negative feedback from the stand you took in your last post, it was well stated. The feedback can get to be rather unplesant, to say the least.



:agree:

[Little Lamb]

North has a point. :yikes: (trying to understand North's point of view)

We really don't know who's saved or who isn't saved. We all grow at different rates. What I may consider a cult, you may not. We all have our reasons for believing the way we do. God works differently in each life.

North and I are both Baptists, yet we disagree on a lot. Won't it be surprising if we both end up in Heaven? :yikes: I don't know North's heart, only God does.

My pastor has said there will be people in Heaven that we disagree with here on earth. That's very true.

[Doma]

Oh I agree that Rome manifests the spirit of Babylon more than any denomination and perhaps religion, but it is yet to be fully manifested and many catholics do and love Jesus, After the rapture Rome will put away all pretence and do away with the christian faith and manifest babylon fully.

I was born again and spirit filled in the catholic church.

[North]

Originally posted by countryroad
:hi:


I believe that scripture can be "rightly divided" because we are exhorted to do so.


There are many absolute, divine decrees of the Lord, written in the word that are not negotiable.




I agree that there are many decrees or major doctrines upon which scripture seems to clearly speak and that must be adhered to if one is to call themselves a Christian (eg Trinity).

There are others that scripture is less clear on and where christianity divides. Both sides are able to muster ample scriptural support for their side. Calvinism & Arminiansim is one such argument. Both are Christians and yet see things fundamentally differently. People can get awfully heated against one another in the debate and for the most part Protestant christianity divides into one camp or the other. I would say earlier in US history we had more Calvinists while now many lean toward Arminianism.

I am a Calvinist but I am trying to understand the Open Theist explanation which some see as a logical extension of Arminianism.

North

[Little Lamb]

Originally posted by Doma
Oh I agree that Rome manifests the spirit of Babylon more than any denomination and perhaps religion, but it is yet to be fully manifested and many catholics do and love Jesus, After the rapture Rome will put away all pretence and do away with the christian faith and manifest babylon fully.

I was born again and spirit filled in the catholic church.
But you left the Catholic Church. Why?

[Eurogal]

Quoting countryroad : "I hope that you don't get a lot of negative feedback from the stand you took in your last post, it was well stated. The feedback can get to be rather unpleasant, to say the least."

WoW.... does that ever feel good before it even feels bad. :flowers:
I just love these rare moments of getting comfort before the pain comes. :eek:
Thank you dear countryroad for ministering to me before I get bashed. :agree:
That’s really coool and very nice of you. :hi:

The RCC was also my mother church for 15 years of my life. I just gave testimony up in this thread to what I have discovered about her. It is not without sad remorse when I ever say or read of the badies that happened in the RCC past.

The nice Catholic brothers on TReview are on the other hand not badies but my loved brothers in the Lord and not my enemies. They are the ones I love and they do love me but don’t like what I think about their doctrines negatively. Just like how I don’t like how they think negatively about the doctrines and teachings I have grown to love and submit to. Fact of the matter is .....I learn to live with it.

Over the months the writings of the Catholic brethren here has shown me what noble and fine guys they are. It is an honor to be on the same board with them. I love their humor and especially their educated way of informing me about items I don’t know so well about in detail.

They would not purposely want to do me in like Dr. Lecter of “Silence of the Lambs”. ;)
Surely not.....well, not yet at least, I'm hoping. :shrug:

Eurogal

[Eurogal]

Quoting North ".......to have our puffed up ego deflated as we discover the guy in front of us is a Roman Catholic (maybe even the Pope) talking to Jesus as He says "Well done thou good and faithful servant".

Personally speaking, I wish not ever to be in that crowd who are throwing stones with labels on them. Labels like ModeratelySaved, PossiblySaved, LiberallySaved, ConservativelySaved, FanaticallySaved, CulticlySaved, ChurchedMembershipSaved, DoctrinallySaved, GoodWorksSaved, HallelujaShouterSaved, or whatever there is out there to categorize religious minded salvation seeking people.

Jesus at the sorting out who are his and who doesn't have the criteria for belonging to him (get away from me I never knew you ones) will use a standard.

Will it be...
Submission to God standard ?
Obedience to commands of God standard ?
Faith in blood of Christ atonement standard ?
Right doctrine standard ?
Right moral living standard ?
Good social helping standard ?
Good missionary standard ?
Love the neighbor standard ?
Justification without sanctification standard?
Regenerated mind but unregenerated heart standard ?
Offering of Cain standard ?
Offering of Abel standard?

How do you know? where do we look for the answer?
How do we prepare ourselves for the Day of Judgement?

Eurogal

[Doma]

why did I leave the catholic church? because the wonderful things of God that had been brought to me, were not being promoted by Rome, barely tolerated, and somewhat kept hidden.

[Little Lamb]

Originally posted by Doma
why did I leave the catholic church? because the wonderful things of God that had been brought to me, were not being promoted by Rome, barely tolerated, and somewhat kept hidden.
So I take it that the Lord led you out of the Catholic Church.

[North]

Originally posted by Little Lamb
But you left the Catholic Church. Why?

I am not Doma but as someone who did attend a Catholic chruch for a while (even went through RCIA) let me reply.

The liturgical service is beautiful and meaningful. After attending a liturgical communion service with its profound sense of history and connectedness with others and respect for the sacrifice of Christ..... our Baptist communion seems almost like kids playing tea party. I nearly cracked up the first time I attended a communion service in the Baptist chruch and it felt somewhat void of meaning and feeling.

So far so good.

However, I had issues with the Catholic church. First, Mary....pretty big problem. Regardless of how the Marian theology was thought out intellectually, it plays itself out in the popular form in a way that imitates idolatry. She plays a role way out of proportion to her role in scripture and certainly inflated.

Second, many of the Priests put zip effort into preparing for sermons. I enjoy Baptist expository preaching because it is intellectually stimulating.

Third, the level of committment among pew Catholics was not good (at least in this area). They arrive up to 15 minutes late (about a third of the Catholic churches I attended) and a good portion left after receving communion (beating the poor Priest out the door). On top of that most did not sing. Beautiful spirit filled music and no singing from the congregation. No fellowship before or after service..........no bible study...etc. Just punch a 45 minute ticket once a week and out the door.

The level of committment I have experienced in Baptist churches is far...far...higher. People attend Bible study and believe it. They are really connected to the church community....they particpate in church and seem to mean it.

Fourth, I have a conservative view of scripture that I did not see to be shared among the Catholics I knew. Maybe I just ran into some liberal ones.

Fifth, I was called to ordained ministry but not called to celibacy. Unless I had been an Anglican priest who converted (they are allowed to become Catholic Priests and remain married) that was out regardless of whether I felt God had called me or not.

North

[Donny Short]

The catholic church is in serious error.

First problem is their belief on Mary. Just because she was favored to bring Christ into the world does not make her an equal with Christ.

Second they are hyprocrite in their teachings. They teach that priests cannot be married while they claim their first pope was the apostle Peter who was married.

Their teaching on confession is terrible and their belief in the sacraments is even worse.

The Church is founded and built on the blood of Christ. Jesus is the only one who has power to forgive sins. Jesus is the only one that can offer eternal life. Jesus and Jesus alone is the only diety that is worthy of worship.

Jesus was the first priest that made an offering and turned around and accepted that offering. He is the alpha and the omega. He is the first and the last. Jesus was and is God.

The catholics teachings are in contrast to the plan of salvation offered in the gospels and their teaching that the pope is the vicar of Christ is blasphmey. It is damnable and has sent millions to hell.

Prostants used to preach so hard against this cult that they would not fellowship with us. We need to get back to that.

The catholic church is a cult and should be rejected.

Next thing you know we will accept muslims into fellowship and allow them to indoctrinate the Church.

[Leo Volont]

Dear North,

It is not a question of Right vs. Not Entirely Right.

There are Churches on the Side of God, and Churches on the Side of Satan.

The Battle is Appropriate.

Now, I am trying to reconcile the Catholic Church with Islam (through renouncing the Doctrine of a Tri-Equal Trinity), to Judaism (through the renounciation of Paulian Anti-Law and Anti-Righteousness Doctrines as well as withdrawing the Franchise for a Separate Gentile Church), and to Hinduism and Buddhism (by adopting Sanskrit Terms in Theological Discussion). But nothing can be done in regards to Protestantism because it is Satanic.

[Little Lamb]

North :duel: I just felt emptiness in the Catholic Church. I much prefer my church's way of communion. I feel much closer to God. The Catholic Church kept me away many times from communion, simply because I didn't confess my sins to a priest. I felt unworthy.

The Baptist's way of communion, I can confess my sins to God right then and there! I still feel unworthy and want to wait to have communion with Jesus when I get to Heaven, but He wants me to partake on earth, so I do.

Donny, you and I are going to get along great! That's 2 things we agree on, the King Jame Bible and Catholics.

[Little Lamb]

Leo,

You are a character. Trying to get Catholism and Islam together.

[North]

Originally posted by Rev Donny Short
The catholic church is in serious error.

First problem is their belief on Mary. Just because she was favored to bring Christ into the world does not make her an equal with Christ.

Second they are hyprocrite in their teachings. They teach that priests cannot be married while they claim their first pope was the apostle Peter who was married.

Their teaching on confession is terrible and their belief in the sacraments is even worse.

The Church is founded and built on the blood of Christ. Jesus is the only one who has power to forgive sins. Jesus is the only one that can offer eternal life. Jesus and Jesus alone is the only diety that is worthy of worship.

snipped

The catholics teachings are in contrast to the plan of salvation offered in the gospels and their teaching that the pope is the vicar of Christ is blasphmey. It is damnable and has sent millions to hell.

Prostants used to preach so hard against this cult that they would not fellowship with us. We need to get back to that.

The catholic church is a cult and should be rejected.

Next thing you know we will accept muslims into fellowship and allow them to indoctrinate the Church.

Rev Donny,

Certain things I agree with you on. The first is that Marinianology is wrong headed and borders on if not crosses over into idoloatry many times.

As to confession, actually your statements could be contested and are by Catholics. We are told to confess our sins to one another in James. The apostles were given authority to bind and lose, etc. I may not quite interpret it that way but a Catholic will show you solid scriptural support.

Marriage, I agree that priests should be allowed to marry. Many are called to ordianed ministry but not celibacy. However, other than the preference of Paul for men being unmarried, to my knowledge the RCC does not calim scriptural authority and it is a matter of dscipline. The Pope could change it at any time. There are already married Eastern Rite Priests and Anglican Priests who converted to Catholicism and are now married Roman Catholic Priests.

What seminary did you go to for your graduate degree? I cannot believe they taught you that the RCC is a cult and has sent millions to hell. That sounds more like discredited Chick publications nonsense (forgive me if I sound harsh). There are some folks who see the RCC as a cult and they are usually the same ones who see the Seventh Day Aventists as cultists.

North

[Eurogal]

Quote from North... "There are some folks who see the RCC as a cult and they are usually the same ones who see the Seventh Day Aventists as cultists."

Cult? Why all this fear of the word ?

Is it’s equation to be equal to being a discriminated, stigmatized black negro in America?

Or a stigma of being an uncircumcised Kenya woman in her Africa home?

Or is the truth in the name 'cult' as being a synomyn for the Mark of the Beast?

Are not all individual faith groups 'cults' when they are adherents of a special group of religious beliefs and practices in the basic of the literal meaning ?

Are not all religious Christian rites practiced rightly refered to as cultic practices in a neutral sense of the word?

Cult used to be put on as label only to satanic driven hoodoo/voodoo/ witch type of religious stuff.

Of course you can say that any faith or christian religious group that has apostazied from the ur-church of the Pentecostal days is now a cult in comparison. There seems to be a kernal of truth to be found in that thought, right?

As for the Seventh-day Adventists....
Their basis of salvation gospel is righteousness by Faith in the Blood atonement of Jesus Christ the only begotten Son of God and the resulting filling of the Holy Spirit after their adult immersion baptism is to guide in sanctification of their souls.
(…by the way).

Sabbatarian Creationist Eschatologist Eurogal

[Doma]

Yes the Lord led me out of Babylon, er the catholic church...

[Little Lamb]

Originally posted by Doma
Yes the Lord led me out of Babylon, er the catholic church...
Same here, but that was before I got saved.