Repentance

[saved]

What do you believe that God means by repentance?

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by saved
What do you believe that God means by repentance?

"Repentance" is a watered down translation for Penance. We know what penance is. Active atonement for sin with a pain proportional to the pleasure of sin, or pain proportional to pain inflicted.

Penance can be in the form of mortification of the body, fasting or prayer. We have a duty to perform penance for our own sins, but, as Christians we need to follow the example of Christ by also doing the Penance which others refuse. When God is offended by Sin, it is no excuse to complain that it is not OUR sin -- whoever is available must jump in and do penance. That is why Catholics so resent Prots -- they do all the sinning, but since they refuse penance, the burden falls to Catholics. Can you understand that a Catholic might Pray to God to give us Relief from our endless Pain and finally just strike down the sinners who so overwhelm us. Prots who ride around with their "I'm not Perfect, just forgiven" bumper stickers living for every whim and pleasure, leaving it for Catholics to endure the Penance. Its not fair.

Is penance necessary. Sure it is. Christ prayed in the Garden three times that the Obligation for Penance be curtailed. God said a resounding NO.

And Christ's Penance would not be sufficient. Every Generation would have Stigmatics -- people who would suffer the five wounds of the crucifixion and the hunger and the thirst of the crucifixion every day of their lives. constant pain and no food or drink for years and years. Quite miraculous. And documented, though skeptics refuse to believe.

But even this penance is insufficinent -- Our Lady tells us that the Sin of the World is far outstipping the Penance performed, and that a huge Payback will soon be demanded. The World Wars of the 20th Century were only a mild prelude of what is to come.

[JayD]

Is penance necessary. Sure it is. Christ prayed in the Garden three times that the Obligation for Penance be curtailed. God said a resounding NO.

How the heck did you come up with that? :confused:

But even this penance is insufficinent -- Our Lady tells us that the Sin of the World is far outstipping the Penance performed, and that a huge Payback will soon be demanded.

So God is a sick demented god who likes to play puppet games with his creation. Dangling the carrot just far enough in front of us so we can't reach it. (Sorry but the polemic side of Genesis dismisses that idea).

Prots who ride around with their "I'm not Perfect, just forgiven" bumper stickers living for every whim and pleasure, leaving it for Catholics to endure the Penance. Its not fair.

Thats the real issue for you Leo isn't it. Its not fair. If there is a doctrine of Penance that penance would be for ones own sins would it not. And any way your assumption that "Prots" are living for every whim and pleasure is total rubbish. But I expect no factual basis for anything that you say anyway.

[Leo Volont]

Dear Jayd,

Prots have a Satanic Doctrine based on Paul, but they have the good influence of the Gospels.

Catholics have the Good Doctrines of the Gospels but the pollution of Paul.

Neither is perfect. But Paul is the Problem of both.

Everytime a Prots says that I am being a liar, they are assuring me that they do indeed ignore Paul to follow Christ. it only supports my argument that you all really deep down inside know that Paul is the Antichrist.

Every once in awhile I get a real Prot with balls and the courage of his convictions who really does say that he is saved by faith alone and drinks, cusses, gets laid all he wants and why shouldn't he since he is once saved always saved and I can go screw myself. But the rest of you are secretly Catholic. Your conscience tells you there's no free ride and that you have to carry your own cross, and God will not permit this proliferation of sin indefinitely.

[JayD]

Every once in awhile I get a real Prot with balls and the courage of his convictions who really does say that he is saved by faith alone and drinks, cusses, gets laid all he wants and why shouldn't he since he is once saved always saved and I can go screw myself

Wow what a distortion of Pauline Theology. But that is your problem isn't. Paul - pure and simple.

So why if it is such heresy didn't the Catholic Church get rid of it in the 1200 years leading up to the Reformation?

Pauline Theology sits perfectly well with the OT, The Gospels, Acts and all the other epistles. It is not contradictory in any part, and just because you have a chip on your shoulder about Paul doesn't make you more supreme than the Papal authority that accepted and maintained the Bible to this very day.

Paul Say your are Saved by Faith alone - that works can't get you there. He never says that being saved by faith gives you a license to sin freely, in fact he says quite the opposite.

But I suppose you are too busy running around the room crying about "it not being fair." then to actually read and study what Paul says.

[saved]

Repentance is not simply turning from sin.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by JayD
Wow what a distortion of Pauline Theology. But that is your problem isn't. Paul - pure and simple.

So why if it is such heresy didn't the Catholic Church get rid of it in the 1200 years leading up to the Reformation?

Pauline Theology sits perfectly well with the OT, The Gospels, Acts and all the other epistles. It is not contradictory in any part, and just because you have a chip on your shoulder about Paul doesn't make you more supreme than the Papal authority that accepted and maintained the Bible to this very day.

Paul Say your are Saved by Faith alone - that works can't get you there. He never says that being saved by faith gives you a license to sin freely, in fact he says quite the opposite.

But I suppose you are too busy running around the room crying about "it not being fair." then to actually read and study what Paul says.


Why did not the Catholic Church get rid of Paul? Paul apparently won the War. The struggle over the Soul of the Church is detailed in Luke. You see the Schism formed there. In short, Paul set up a separate doctrine, he alienates Barnabas and Mark, creates his own Churchs in Greece, the True Disciples report his heresies to Peter, who thickheadedly says "as long as pays his dues he can teach whatever he wants". The Church was then and there Sold Out. Peter would later abandon the Church in Jerusalem and head off to 'Preach' to the Rich Greek Merchant ?Class like Paul, figuring that there was enough money in the World for both of them. To appeal to their 'target demographic' they stressed the New Church's Anti-semitism. You may not know this, but the Jews had been proselytizing all over both the Persian and Roman Empires, and rather successfully. What Peter and Paul were able to do was harness the Old Pagan Bigotry against the Jews, while offering a shaved down version of the New Dispensation. Now, I am not one of those who think EVERY METHOD to spread the Gospel is necessarily good. Using Anti-Semitic hate to advance Christianity was not either Noble or True.

But after Peter made his deal with the Devil, we were caught in your argument -- if it was Good Yesterday, then what makes it wrong Today. If you notice, there is nothing really logical in your argument. Self Interest and Bigotry started the Program, and then it was hardened by Institutional Use. A lot of dumb stuff becomes institutionalized -- look at the American Constitution -- it does nothing to assure that the Executive Branch is of the Same Party as the Legistlative Branch -- in fact never envisioned Political Parties which were allowed to entrench themselves into an Extra-Constitutional Authority. but once it is solidified in Institution, it becomes virtually unchangeable without completely destroying the System.

This is why Christ gave us the Parable of the Wheat and The Tares. "Master an enemy has sowed Tares in and amongst our Wheat! Should we rip up the Field and take ALL That Crap out?" Jesus said "No, lest yee tear up the Good with the Bad, let it all stay and grow up side by side until Harvest, and then the Wheat shall be gathered into the Bins of the Blessed, and the Weeds be cast into Hell".

The only reason I am bringing up the Problem now, is because Now is the Harvest. The Prophecy of Malachi shows that the Roman Church approaches its End. Pope John Paul II is the second to last Pope and practically already in the Grave. This leaves 2 more Popes, but they say the Last Pope will be a momentary aberration. Whatever comes NEXT, Paul will not be a part of it. An Angel came to me and told me "The Church of Paul has one last role to play". Sounds like the End of the Church of Paul to me. If it were interested in its Survival then that "last role" better be to kill me dead, because if it doesn't, I will stamp it out personally.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by JayD
Wow what a distortion of Pauline Theology. But that is your problem isn't. Paul - pure and simple.

So why if it is such heresy didn't the Catholic Church get rid of it in the 1200 years leading up to the Reformation?

Pauline Theology sits perfectly well with the OT, The Gospels, Acts and all the other epistles. It is not contradictory in any part, and just because you have a chip on your shoulder about Paul doesn't make you more supreme than the Papal authority that accepted and maintained the Bible to this very day.

Paul Say your are Saved by Faith alone - that works can't get you there. He never says that being saved by faith gives you a license to sin freely, in fact he says quite the opposite.

But I suppose you are too busy running around the room crying about "it not being fair." then to actually read and study what Paul says.

Answering in bite size, if you will excuse me.

Yes, Yes, even the Catholics bend over backwards to try to justify Paul. They send seminary students to an extra two years that they wouldn't ordinarily need just so they will "understand" Paul. Yes, Paul makes his little compromises. But if you look at the main sweep of his arguments, he is a Libertine. "Righteousness is boasting and Good Works a Debt". I've tried to go the way of using a verse here and a verse there, out of context, in order to refute main thrusts of Paul's arguments, like other Catholic Apologists. But it is simply disingenuous. If you take enough time you could also Mathematically Demonstrate Ptolemaic Astronomy where the Earth is the Center of the Universe -- it takes a Mesh of Clockwork Math using Primary, Secondary and retrograde orbits, but it can be done. Only it isn't True. You can pretend Paul's heart is in the right place, but it wasn't. Christ's Criteria for a False Prophet simply rings the Bell too loudly on Paul.

[Buzzard]

Originally posted by Leo Volont
Sounds like the End of the Church of Paul to me. If it were interested in its Survival then that "last role" better be to kill me dead, because if it doesn't, I will stamp it out personally.

AHhhhhhh Leo;

When god turns his back on the world,
and refuses to even look upon man,

Then;
the Angel's that held themselves in check at the cross,
will be given free reign,
too do as they will

and extract from man all the
"Wine in the cup of Abominations"
and in those days man will beg for death,
they will search for it as hidden treasures,
but it won't come,
and the Angels will exact from man
7 times the evil he has done,

They won't need your help

but to his own he saith
~{Ps.91:1}~
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High
shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
2 I will say of the LORD,
He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.

3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler,
and from the noisome pestilence.
4 He shall cover thee with his feathers,
and under his wings shalt thou trust:
his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
5 Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night;
nor for the arrow that flieth by day;
6 Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness;
nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
7 A thousand shall fall at thy side,
and ten thousand at thy right hand;
No Rapture here
but it shall not come nigh thee.
8 Only with thine eyes
shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
9 Because thou hast made the LORD,
which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;
10 There shall no evil befall thee,
neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.
This is the reaping what ye have sewn thingy;
And all the blood shed on the earth will be extracted
from this last day generation

and then at the resurection of the damned
there is another penality to pay;
for the sins against God,
and these are the sins that
No Man on earth can forgive you for:
these are the ones you must ask him
personally
and yea, tho you flee to the fareth star;
there I will find you;
Yea even tho you flee to the deepest hell;
There I will sniff you out
then they will be destroyed for good
[list=1] For Good, as in Eternity Good as in, the Good of the universe[/list=1]

Buzz:

[JayD]

Ah Leo,

What a complex web we weave. Not only are you sitting in the corner sucking your thumb declaring loudly - Its not Fair. But you ursurp the Church. You know more than they do - Paul was wrong, and because the Catholic Church won't acknowledge your personal preference then it is wrong. and the evil "Prot's" won't acknowledge that Paul is wrong because they are too busy running around in the wild smearing honey on their bodies and having fun.

Such a shame that we all lumber you with the Job to perform peneance for the rest of us....

I think you have been drinking too much coffee.

[me again]

The poll results seem pretty clear cut. Seven to zero. :me::up:

[JayD]

It seems to me that everyone would agree that one needs to repent in order to be saved. The question that seems to be of debate is the nature of repentance. As such some believe that repentance is an on going thing to maintain salvation others believe that repentance for salvation is a one off thing, not of course negating the need to repent for sins as time goes by - but not to maintain a salvific status.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by JayD
Ah Leo,

What a complex web we weave. Not only are you sitting in the corner sucking your thumb declaring loudly - Its not Fair. But you ursurp the Church. You know more than they do - Paul was wrong, and because the Catholic Church won't acknowledge your personal preference then it is wrong. and the evil "Prot's" won't acknowledge that Paul is wrong because they are too busy running around in the wild smearing honey on their bodies and having fun.

Such a shame that we all lumber you with the Job to perform peneance for the rest of us....

I think you have been drinking too much coffee.

Well, Jay D.

You may have all kinds of anxieties for me, but I don't. The angels have told me I'm right. What do you have?

I live in a spiritually real world and I'm contending with a Religion that is right enough to have Our Lady abide with it, but wrong enough to make Her cry.

Prots can pretend that everything is perfect, because, one way or another, in their spiritual vacuum, it simply does not matter. Your game of pretend just doesn't correspond to any reality beyond wishful thinking -- the legacy of Paul. but, hey, I shouldn't criticize too much -- there must be good money in Protestantism -- the product is easy enough to sell, no?

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by me again
The poll results seem pretty clear cut. Seven to zero. :me::up:

and I suppose Heaven is now a democracy?

[JayD]

The angels have told me I'm right.

well that makes all the difference...

:haha:

[Buzzard]

ahhhh Leo;
would you say a prayer for me and include me in some of your pentance,

It was yokels like us he came to save;

~{Matt.9:11}~
11 And when the Pharisees saw it,
they said unto his disciples,
Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners????????
12 But when Jesus heard that,
he said unto them,
They that be whole need not a physician,
but they that are sick

------His instruction to Da Pharisees
But go ye and learn what that meaneth,
I will have mercy, and not sacrifice:
for I am not come to call the righteous,
but sinners to repentance.

and thats from the;
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

The Pharisees don't need a saviour,
We do.


God Bless You and Yours;
Buzz:

[me again]

Posted by Leo Volont
and I suppose Heaven is now a democracy? Interestingly, heaven is a kingdom. While I'm saying the obvious, it is interesting to note nonetheless.

:agree:

[saved]

Originally posted by JayD
It seems to me that everyone would agree that one needs to repent in order to be saved. The question that seems to be of debate is the nature of repentance. As such some believe that repentance is an on going thing to maintain salvation others believe that repentance for salvation is a one off thing, not of course negating the need to repent for sins as time goes by - but not to maintain a salvific status.

Repentance is not turning from sin. If we will look at scripture there is no verse in the New Testament that deals with salvation and calls for men to repent of their sin. The statement "repent of your sin" in regards to salvation is pulpit made. Scripture simply says repent.

Repentance is done from within and seen outwardly. The turning from sin is the fruits or result of repentance not the repentance itself. Many people think that they are saved because they have turned from sin. That is works salvation.

The bible says in Acts 20:21 that repentance is turning to God. When we repent we turn to God accepting Him for who and what He is and He must be Lord. We come willingly to be lead in anything He says. That is why the Lord said;
Luk 9:23 And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
We are now submissive to HIS will. This is done in spirit and seen in the outward. Many people turn from sin and never turn to God. They may like God and tell others about Him, but in their hearts they have never surrendered totally to the God of creation and they are not saved. This is why when we see someone who is in rebellion claims to be saved that we say how can this be. It can't. Some call it backsliding, but the truth is that the person never got saved, they only reformed. They decide within themselves which commands to follow making excuses and coming up with false beliefs why other commands need not be followed. These people seem to follow for a time and then go off on their own. They then for a time come back and for a time seem to follow. Then they fall away again. They are not Christians. True Christians do not practice sin, they practice righteousness 1John3.

This is why the Lord gave Matt 7 where he says many will say Lord! Lord! only to hear "I never knew you" If we read the passage carefully it shows that they preached in the name of Christ, they did good deeds and so on, but the problem was that they had never come to surrender themselves from within so as to have God over them in every part of their lives.

I have given this before and I will again. I have been a Christian for over 20 years now. I came from a seriously sinful lifestyle. From the time of salvation there has not been a month, not a day, not a week, not an hour, not a minute that I am not being dealt with by the Lord. I am always aware of who I am in Him. That is what happens when someone repents and is saved Romans calls it the Spirit bearing witness with our spirit. He does it continually and will never stop.

So repentance is not what we do in the flesh. it is what we do in spirit/heart. We turn to God. Repentance is not feeling sorry or having guilt for our sin, although we may feel sorry and have guilt. Repentance is a change of mind as to who is going to run my life, me or God. We come to repentance when we make the dicission to turn to God from the heart. The scriptures says it this way.
Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find [me], when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

The good works come after repentance because we now trust God (have faith),but the good works are a result of repentance not the repentance itself.

We are told to come to repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. In other words when we come to the point of surrender to God, His way not ours, He then says take that heart of repentance and place it on My Son the Lord Jesus Christ and faith is born and we are saved.

[JayD]

I agree with you Saved. Repentance is an internal/external thing - it can not be otherwise. The Repent from your sins, a call echoing John the Baptist, has that in meaning, it is a total change in lifestyle.

There is a need to continually clean out the cupboard, and repent of the sins that occur during ones walk with God. But the penance that Leo proclaims is not a requirement. You don't need to go into the backyard, pat your head, rub your stomach, and weed the garden - all at the same time - whilst say 50 our fathers. But having said that - we are not to just live as Jo Pagan down the street and come home and say sorry just to do it all again - its not what the bible or Christianity is about. It is a reformation of ourselves.