Alzheimers and Salvation

[me again]

A while back, we ran a poll asking if God would allow his servants to contract Alzheimers disease – and the poll-majority answered with a resounding “yes.” :(

Here is a follow-up question. If the above poll is true, then: Once a "Christian" Alzheimers patient loses their mind, then can they recant their testimony for the Lord Jesus Christ and, subsequently, lose their salvation? If they've lost their mind through Alzheimers, then will the Lord still hold them accountable for their recantation? :think:

[saved]

Originally posted by me again
A while back, we ran a poll asking if God would allow his servants to contract Alzheimers disease – and the poll-majority answered with a resounding “yes.” :(

Here is a follow-up question. If the above poll is true, then: Once a "Christian" Alzheimers patient loses their mind, then can they recant their testimony for the Lord Jesus Christ and, subsequently, lose their salvation? If they've lost their mind through Alzheimers, then will the Lord still hold them accountable for their recantation? :think:


me again,
nothing can separate us from Christ. We cannot lose our salvation, period. In the case of someone who has been saved and they contract a disease that causes their minds to deteriorate, they are not held accountable for their actions.
Jam 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin.

The person is not responsible for what causes the disease nor are they responsible their actions due to the disease. It is no different then a woman who is raped. She has had sex outside of marriage, but she is not held as the one in sin. The same thing would apply here.

[me again]

Posted by saved
nothing can separate us from Christ. We cannot lose our salvation, period. In the case of someone who has been saved and they contract a disease that causes their minds to deteriorate, they are not held accountable for their actions.
Jam 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin.

The person is not responsible for what causes the disease nor are they responsible their actions due to the disease. It is no different then a woman who is raped. She has had sex outside of marriage, but she is not held as the one in sin. The same thing would apply here. Wow, you're pretty knowledgable about the scriptures. :agree:

[7thwatch]

OSAS rears its ugly head again. We should keep the trash contained to its appropriate thread :D

IMO God knows when a disease has robbed you of your ability to make decisions. You are no longer yourself.

[me again]

Posted by 7thwatch
OSAS rears its ugly head again. We should keep the trash contained to its appropriate thread :D :haha:

That was pretty funny, even though I believe in OSAS. :nervous: ;)

[7thwatch]

Originally posted by me again
:haha:

That was pretty funny, even though I believe in OSAS. :nervous: ;)

I'm just glad you realized I was kidding around . . . sarcasm is often lost on these boards.

[me again]

Posted by 7thwatch
I'm just glad you realized I was kidding around . . . sarcasm is often lost on these boards. Yes, that's true. Sometimes people are easily offended or hurt -- when the original intent was meant to be funny. :blush: :me:

[Padre2]

A better question might be, can someone with Alzheimer's come to Christ?

Blessings,
Padre

[me again]

Originally posted by Padre2
A better question might be, can someone with Alzheimer's come to Christ? Oh wow!!! :idea:

[saved]

Originally posted by Padre2
A better question might be, can someone with Alzheimer's come to Christ?

Blessings,
Padre

Padre2,
it would depend on at what stage they are at. If the person can still grasp the need for repentance and come to faith they can get saved, but if they are too far along and cannot they cannot be saved.
We seem to lose understanding on this. It is no different then a person who lives for 20 , 40, or 60, years and denies Christ. Then they have a car wreck and are in a comma. People ask can they now be saved. Yes if they wake up and turn to God, but not until. We forget that they had all those years and rejected Him so they do not get some special way to Him just because they had an accident. The same with Alzheimer's patients. Today is the day of salvation, DO NOT TAKE THE LORD LIGHTLY!

[JayD]

Once Altziemers takes control, the person is no longer accesible to the world. They are prisoners in themselves. So for them to recant would require a concious decision against God to be made, which can't be done.

As they degenerate they revert to a simple mind and thus only a simple gospel message would be able to hold. the assessment of this situation would also have to be related to childhood confessions.

[me again]

Originally posted by JayD
Once Altziemers takes control, the person is no longer accesible to the world. They are prisoners in themselves. So for them to recant would require a concious decision against God to be made, which can't be done.

As they degenerate they revert to a simple mind and thus only a simple gospel message would be able to hold. the assessment of this situation would also have to be related to childhood confessions. Okay, you're saying that the Alzheimers patient can't recant because they don't know what they're doing. But can an unsaved Alzheimers patient get saved? :think:

[me again]

Originally posted by saved
it would depend on at what stage they are at. If the person can still grasp the need for repentance and come to faith they can get saved, but if they are too far along and cannot they cannot be saved. Only the Lord know's what stage we're all at. :think:

I've seen some pretty mean spirited Alzheimer's patients. I've seen foul words coming out of their mouths in a giant. non-stop stream of septic-tank-like filth. :eek:

My Oma (grandmother) became very mean-spirited when she was in the late stages of Alzheimers. :( She didn't curse.

[Tom]

My grandmother was one of the godliest, most loving women I ever knew. While she was in her right mind I never heard her curse or utter a harsh word about anyone. When she became affected by this disease she became verbally abusive to my grandfather who was a cheat and a lowlife. She would curse him and tell him what a lowlife he was but she was still kind to everyone else. She didn't even know her own children in the end but she was nice to everyone but my grandpa.

Tom

[saved]

Originally posted by me again
Okay, you're saying that the Alzheimers patient can't recant because they don't know what they're doing. But can an unsaved Alzheimers patient get saved? :think:

The answer is if they regress so far that they cannot comprehend and cannot repent then the answer is no, they cannot be saved. They had all those years before this desease to get saved and put it off. They are like a living dead person. The dead cannot be saved.

The offer of salvation is not until your last breath. It is offered with conditions. Those conditions require repentance and faith. If an illness comes on us and renders us unable to repent and come to faith then the conditions for salvation do not change . We just lose the oppertunity for that salvation. That is why we are warned, today is the day of salvation, you do not know what tomorrow holds. Do not play games with God and think that you will win.

[saved]

Originally posted by Tom
My grandmother was one of the godliest, most loving women I ever knew. While she was in her right mind I never heard her curse or utter a harsh word about anyone. When she became affected by this disease she became verbally abusive to my grandfather who was a cheat and a lowlife. She would curse him and tell him what a lowlife he was but she was still kind to everyone else. She didn't even know her own children in the end but she was nice to everyone but my grandpa.

Tom

Tom if she was saved before the condition then she remained saved. Nothing can pluck us out of His hand once we are saved.

[itsjustdave1988]

Hmmm. Did Jesus forgive the sins of the paralytic because the paralytic repented of his sins and came to the "altar call" to say the sinner's prayer? Or, didn't Jesus forgive the sins of the paralytic because of the faith of his friends?

Matt 9:2 Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven."

[Leo Volont]

Why would you ask such a thing?

Do you have Alzheimers? Or your parents?

This is one of those problems that come from fixation on personal salvation.

If a Soul sometimes simply evaporates what does it matter as long as God remains?

Maybe you should think of Life as One Collective Whole -- All Living Things suspended in One Divine Lifeforce. With such a Picture in Mind we still must be Righteous and Obey God, but we are not so encumbered by worries of our own illusionary individuality. In my case, have there not always been Leo's before I ever arrived, and will there not still be Leo's after I am gone?

don't worry about individuals. Worry about the Will of God.

[saved]

Originally posted by itsjustdave1988
Hmmm. Did Jesus forgive the sins of the paralytic because the paralytic repented of his sins and came to the "altar call" to say the sinner's prayer? Or, didn't Jesus forgive the sins of the paralytic because of the faith of his friends?

Matt 9:2 Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven."

Dave,
It is not about coming to an alter or a sinners prayer. No one gets saved by a sinners prayer or coming to an alter. Jesus did not thrust salvation on someone who was not seeking it. The paralytic was just that a paralytic, not comatose in mind. He would have ASK the men to bring him. He was coming to Jesus because he believed in Him. The person with Alzheimers cannot come to any discission at all once they have come to a certain point. If we cannot come to faith we cannot get saved.

[me again]

Originally posted by saved
Dave,
It is not about coming to an alter or a sinners prayer. No one gets saved by a sinners prayer or coming to an alter. Jesus did not thrust salvation on someone who was not seeking it. The paralytic was just that a paralytic, not comatose in mind. He would have ASK the men to bring him. He was coming to Jesus because he believed in Him. The person with Alzheimers cannot come to any discission at all once they have come to a certain point. If we cannot come to faith we cannot get saved. Very perceptive of you to see that. I never considered it before. :)

[Tom]

Originally posted by saved
Tom if she was saved before the condition then she remained saved. Nothing can pluck us out of His hand once we are saved.

I agree.

[Padre2]

Oh, so much to respond to. Oh well, I guess I will have to address these things as I can. However, one issue I would like to address is the issue of "can an Alzheimer's patient be to far gone for God to reach?" In other words, is there a point of no return if you take the stand that Saved does that God's redemptive plan is entirely dependent on our cognitive function.

While in Seminary, I was the administrator of a Residential Home for the Elderly primarily Alzheimer's victims. Two incidents of the grace of God to reach the afflicted stay fresh in my memory. One of them I will share with you now.

A lady by the name of Naomi, afflicted with Alzheimer's, was placed in our facility. She was a sweet lady who could not remember from one moment to the next who you where, where she was, or what just happened. In the evenings, she would be up late into the night weeping and moaning. When asked what was the matter she would say, I don't know. She was continually pulling the emergency cord to have someone come and help when she was in these states. My employees were becoming increasing frustrated in how to deal with her and calm her down so she could rest.

One evening, I was on duty when the crying and wailing began. I went back to speak with her. When I asked here what was wrong she said she didn't know. Knowing she was from the Church of God denomination, I had this brilliant idea to ask her to "testify" i.e., to tell me something good God had done for her in her life. (My approach being to get her to "think on good things.)

To my amazement her eyes cleared, her mind cleared, and she responded "what has God ever done for me?!" I spent the next hour listening to a very lucid account of a very troubled life. She cried as she shared some deeply hidden heartaches and regrets. In the end, we prayed for forgiveness and healing. When we finished praying she asked me if she could have some water. I immediately left her room and went to get her a glass of water. When I returned with her water I said, "here's the water you requested." She responded, "I didn't ask for any water." I reminded her that we had been having a talk together when she asked for water. Her response: "You were in my room? What were we talking about?"

She never remembered the discussion we had that night. Her Alzheimer's continued to progress. But she never again cried at night. In fact, she finished her days with a peaceful spirit.

"Nothing is impossible with God!"

Padre

[me again]

Wow. :angel:

[saved]

Originally posted by Padre2
Oh, so much to respond to. Oh well, I guess I will have to address these things as I can. However, one issue I would like to address is the issue of "can an Alzheimer's patient be to far gone for God to reach?" In other words, is there a point of no return if you take the stand that Saved does that God's redemptive plan is entirely dependent on our cognitive function.

While in Seminary, I was the administrator of a Residential Home for the Elderly primarily Alzheimer's victims. Two incidents of the grace of God to reach the afflicted stay fresh in my memory. One of them I will share with you now.

A lady by the name of Naomi, afflicted with Alzheimer's, was placed in our facility. She was a sweet lady who could not remember from one moment to the next who you where, where she was, or what just happened. In the evenings, she would be up late into the night weeping and moaning. When asked what was the matter she would say, I don't know. She was continually pulling the emergency cord to have someone come and help when she was in these states. My employees were becoming increasing frustrated in how to deal with her and calm her down so she could rest.

One evening, I was on duty when the crying and wailing began. I went back to speak with her. When I asked here what was wrong she said she didn't know. Knowing she was from the Church of God denomination, I had this brilliant idea to ask her to "testify" i.e., to tell me something good God had done for her in her life. (My approach being to get her to "think on good things.)

To my amazement her eyes cleared, her mind cleared, and she responded "what has God ever done for me?!" I spent the next hour listening to a very lucid account of a very troubled life. She cried as she shared some deeply hidden heartaches and regrets. In the end, we prayed for forgiveness and healing. When we finished praying she asked me if she could have some water. I immediately left her room and went to get her a glass of water. When I returned with her water I said, "here's the water you requested." She responded, "I didn't ask for any water." I reminded her that we had been having a talk together when she asked for water. Her response: "You were in my room? What were we talking about?"

She never remembered the discussion we had that night. Her Alzheimer's continued to progress. But she never again cried at night. In fact, she finished her days with a peaceful spirit.

"Nothing is impossible with God!"

Padre

Padre2,
you have BADLY miss-quoted me even to the point of accusing me of someting I never said. What I said was that is a person reaches the point that they cannot come to faith they cannot be saved. If this woman was saved, and you do not know if she was, then she had not reached a point where she could not repent and come to faith.
However we can come to that point in our lives. Scripture makes that clear. It is the reason that we are warned that today is the day of salvation. In 2Thess God gives warning of people who go so far that they are then confused by God Himslef so that they cannot be saved.

[Padre2]

Saved,

How did I misrepresent you? Do you not believe if a person can understand the message and ascent to it then they can experience salvation? All I am saying is God can break through any barrier and reach someone with his love and mercy.

By the way, what does the body of Christ do about people born with cognitive dysfunction. Is there no hope for them?

Padre

[saved]

Originally posted by Padre2
Saved,

How did I misrepresent you? Do you not believe if a person can understand the message and ascent to it then they can experience salvation? All I am saying is God can break through any barrier and reach someone with his love and mercy.

By the way, what does the body of Christ do about people born with cognitive dysfunction. Is there no hope for them?

Padre

padre,
first let me respond to your question as to how you miss-represented my statements. You wrote;

"In other words, is there a point of no return if you take the stand that Saved does that God's redemptive plan is entirely dependent on our cognitive function."

I have never said that "God's redemptive plan is entirely dependent on our cognitive function." If that were the case no one would get saved, not even the smartest person. God is the one who saves, not something we do or have.

You asked;
"Do you not believe if a person can understand the message and ascent to it then they can experience salvation? "

No I do not believe that. The Jews had the intelectual ability to understand, but it was not for them all to accept the Messiah so as to be saved.
Luk 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
I believe in election which is what scripture teaches. Yes the person is responsible to accept, but God still elects and not all are part of that elect.

You stated;
"All I am saying is God can break through any barrier and reach someone with his love and mercy."

In the original post to this thread there was no reason to believe that the question was about some miracle that God might perform on a given individual. It was a question of generality about a particular type of people who have come under a certain type of disease that takes away their ability to function mentally. The question was can they be saved? The answer is yes if they have not gotten so bad that they cannot come to repentance and faith. That answer is correct. It would be the same for someone who has been in an accedent and become brain dead. Can they be saved, no. However if God so sees fit to bring them back for a moment to understand and they hear the gospel, repent and come to faith praise God, but in general the answer is no.

You asked;
"By the way, what does the body of Christ do about people born with cognitive dysfunction. Is there no hope for them?"

I have listened to many people teach on this and almost without question they all agree that the person who is born without the ability to receive Christ will not be held accountable. I will tell you that after much study on the subject and searching the scriptures I can find little on the matter to support this belief. I am not saying that it is wrong, but that there is not enough scripture to be dogmatic on the matter. I believe that most likely that they are not held accountable, but since I believe in original sin it does cause some difficulties. The only scripture I know of that gives any hope for them is;
Jam 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin.

So what I believe is that if a person cannot at all understand that they are doing wrong they are spared, but I also believe that it is very few people. In dealing with some very retarded people I have found that they do know at least sometimes when they do wrong. Some few in a vegistated state do not understand anything so I believe that they most likely are spared the judgement.

[itsjustdave1988]

Saved,

You said:

If we cannot come to faith, we cannot get saved.

Scripture tells us that Jesus forgave the paralytic because of the faith of his friends. It seems God blesses some because of the faithfulness of others, and it seems these blessings can include forgiveness of sins.

[Tom]

As far as the cognitive disfunction issue is concerned or the infant mortality issue is concerned the scripture that comes to my mind is Romans 9:18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Who will be in Heaven? Everyone who is supposed to be!

Tom

[saved]

Originally posted by itsjustdave1988
Saved,

You said:

Scripture tells us that Jesus forgave the paralytic because of the faith of his friends. It seems God blesses some because of the faithfulness of others, and it seems these blessings can include forgiveness of sins.

Dave,
that would not be true. In the passage the Lord is speaking to the paralytic, but the word "your" is in the plural inludes the faith of the paralytic. God does not grant salvation to someone because of anothers faith. That is an old false teaching of the RCC and it has damned a many a people.
The man who was not able to walk had faith enough to want to came to Jesus. he was not being led there screaming. His faith brought him tp forgiveness. No one gets saved without personal faith.