Ask 7thwatch anything

[7thwatch]

In this thread you can ask me any question you want to, and I will answer it honestly, no exceptions (with the exception of info like full name, address, etc. obviously).

Bring the tough questions, the dumb questions, the easy questions, the stupid questions, the embarrasing questions, the personal questions. Anything goes.

[Little Lamb]

7thwatch,

Silly question. Are you like an eight ball? We used to have them when I was a kid. We would ask the 8 ball a yes or no question and it would answer.

Seriously, be careful here. Don't give out any information that would put you or your family and friends in danger.

[7thwatch]

Originally posted by Little Lamb
[B]7thwatch,

Silly question. Are you like an eight ball? We used to have them when I was a kid. We would ask the 8 ball a yes or no question and it would answer.

Yes, I am like an 8 ball - I never tell people what they wan't to hear. For example, the Yankees won game 2. You didn't want to hear that, did you. "Yankees win" are the two most hated words in all of sports :D

Seriously, be careful here. Don't give out any information that would put you or your family and friends in danger.

Thanks for your concern. I won't be giving out any info that could help someone find out where I live or who I am.

[Zerubbabel]

How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie roll tootsie pop?



-Z.

[me again]

Posted by Zerubbabel
How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie roll tootsie pop? :haha: LOL

Ok, here is a question:Regarding the parable of Lazarus and the rich man...

If the concept of an immediate afterlife is a lie from the devil, then why did the Lord Jesus use such an illustration in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man?:duel:

[7thwatch]

Originally posted by Zerubbabel
How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie roll tootsie pop?



-Z.

279 (roughly)

[7thwatch]

Originally posted by me again
Regarding the parable of Lazarus and the rich man...

If the concept of an immediate afterlife is a lie from the devil, then why did the Lord Jesus use such an illustration in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man?[/list]:duel:

Good question. First, there are several things we must realize about this parable:

1) Jesus was using a popular myth to illustrate a point. The word translated hell is "hades" which is a place of torment in greek mythology. Obviously people do not go to "hades" (whenever they go). The people listening would have known he was using a popular story. Similarly, if Jesus were here today and told a story about never never land, you would not think that it actually existed.

2) There are numerous things taught in that parable about heaven and hell. You must either 1)accept it all or 2)dismiss it because Jesus is utilizing a myth to make a point. If you take this literally you cannot pick and choose which parts to make literal and beleive, its all or nothing.

Things taught about heaven and hell in this parable:



- you go straight to heaven/hell when you die
- Abraham decides who is saved and lost?!?!
- saved go to Abrahams Bosom (it must be big)
- the "souls" have tounges? I thought soul were disembodied spirit :think:
- drop of water would cool the tounge of someone in hell
- people in heaven and hell can talk to each other.

If you accept the first item on that list you must accept all the rest of them. All or nothing. (the correct answer is "nothing")


Furthermore, Jesus himself taught that the wicked would be cast into hell and the righteous would go to heaven after the second coming, not before:

"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:… Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:… And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matthew 25:31-34, 41, 46)

“As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Matt 13:40-42)

[Little Lamb]

As I have said before, Lazerus and the rich man is not a parable. It is not a lie of the devil. It is a true story. It actually happened.

[Zerubbabel]

Originally posted by 7thwatch
279 (roughly)




Three.


One.
Tahooo.
Three.

CRUNCH!

Three.

[me again]

Posted by Little Lamb
As I have said before, Lazerus and the rich man is not a parable. It is a true story. It actually happened. You said that it is a true story because the bible says that it was a certain rich man. If you are correct, then is the other story about "a certain rich man" in Luke 12:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=luke+12%3A16&KJV_version=yes&language=english&x=15&y=11) also a true story?

Pray tell? :confused: ;)

I dare you to answer. :duel:

[Little Lamb]

Originally posted by me again
You said that it is a true story because the bible says that it was a certain rich man. If you are correct, then is the other story about "a certain rich man" in Luke 12:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=luke+12%3A16&KJV_version=yes&language=english&x=15&y=11) also a true story?

Pray tell? :confused: ;)

I dare you to answer. :duel:

:duel: me again :duel:

What I want to call you I should pm you about.

That's only one verse. And it is enough. That particular piece of scripture is a parable.

So there! :box: :lolbonk:

[me again]

If you remember, you first said that it was a true incident because the Lord Jesus said that there was a certain rich man. You used that as proof that it was not a parable.

:lolbonk:

[Little Lamb]

Originally posted by me again
If you remember, you first said that it was a true incident because the Lord Jesus said that there was a certain rich man. You used that as proof that it was not a parable.

:lolbonk:

:duel: me again, :duel:

I was not referring to that parable as really happening. I was referring to Luke 16 as really happening.

[7thwatch]

Originally posted by Little Lamb
As I have said before, Lazerus and the rich man is not a parable. It is not a lie of the devil. It is a true story. It actually happened.

so you think all of this is fact:


- Abraham decides who is saved and lost
- saved literally go to Abrahams Bosom
- you go straight to heaven/hell when you die
- "souls" have tounges
- drop of water would cool the tounge of someone in hell
- people in heaven and hell can talk to each other.

[Little Lamb]

Originally posted by 7thwatch
so you think all of this is fact:


- Abraham decides who is saved and lost
- saved literally go to Abrahams Bosom
- you go straight to heaven/hell when you die
- "souls" have tounges
- drop of water would cool the tounge of someone in hell
- people in heaven and hell can talk to each other.

No, Abraham does not decide who gets saved and who's lost. Where did you ever get that idea? It never said he decides who goes to Heaven and who doesn't.

Saved in the Old Testament did mean you go to Abraham's bosom upon death.

Evidently people could talk to each other in Abraham's bosom and Hell, because in Luke 16 they did. That was a compartment that was divided.

This is another thing we disagree on.

[me again]

LL,

In the parable, the rich man asked Abraham for permission to return to the land of the living, but Abraham denied his request. :me:
Did Abraham have that authority? :duel:

[Little Lamb]

Originally posted by me again
LL,

In the parable, the rich man asked Abraham for permission to return to the land of the living, but Abraham denied his request. :me:
Did Abraham have that authority? :duel:

:duel: me again, :duel:

If you read the scripture, you will plainly see that Abraham did tell him he couldn't return to life, because Abraham was just telling him how it was. He wasn't forbidding it, he was saying how it was done.

[me again]

Posted by Little Lamb
If you read the scripture, you will plainly see that Abraham did tell him he couldn't return to life, because Abraham was just telling him how it was. He wasn't forbidding it, he was saying how it was done. LL,

So you really believe that the conversation between the rich man and Abraham occured? :confused:

And you really believe that the rich man asked Abraham for some water? :nervous:

And you really believe that the rich man asked Abraham for permission to return to the land of the living? :nervous:

[Little Lamb]

Originally posted by me again
LL,

So you really believe that the conversation between the rich man and Abraham occured? :confused:

And you really believe that the rich man asked Abraham for some water? :nervous:

And you really believe that the rich man asked Abraham for permission to return to the land of the living? :nervous:

Yes, yes, and yes. I do.

me again, don't you believe it actually happened?

[me again]

Regarding the parable of Lazarus and the rich man:Posted by Little Lamb
Don't you believe it actually happened? No. :no:

It is modeled exactly after the parable in Luke 12:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=luke+12%3A16&KJV_version=yes&language=english&x=14&y=7). Why would Luke 16:19 not be a parable? It is, in fact, the third parable (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?search=a+certain+rich+man&SearchType=EXACT&version=KJV&restrict=&StartRestrict=&EndRestrict=&rpp=25&language=english&searchpage=0) in a row concerning "a certain rich man." ;)

:duel:

[Little Lamb]

Originally posted by me again
Regarding the parable of Lazarus and the rich man:No. :no:

It is modeled exactly after the parable in Luke 12:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=luke+12%3A16&KJV_version=yes&language=english&x=14&y=7). Why would Luke 16:19 not be a parable? It is, in fact, the third parable (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?search=a+certain+rich+man&SearchType=EXACT&version=KJV&restrict=&StartRestrict=&EndRestrict=&rpp=25&language=english&searchpage=0) in a row concerning "a certain rich man." ;)

:duel:

Oh me again, what am I going to do with you? :duel: :confused:

Since when did Jesus use names in parables?

Luke 12:16 says it's a parable. Does it not?

[7thwatch]

Originally posted by Little Lamb
No, Abraham does not decide who gets saved and who's lost. Where did you ever get that idea? It never said he decides who goes to Heaven and who doesn't.

my mistake, I thought it did.

Saved in the Old Testament did mean you go to Abraham's bosom upon death.

actually, this was a popular myth of Jewish folklore. In their folklore it was said that Abraham's bosom was a compartment in Hades (this sound familiar . . .)

You can read about this in more detail in:

An Extract out of Josephus's Discourse to the Greeks concerning Hades, The Works of Flavius Josephus, translated by William Whiston, p. 799-800.

It can also be shown that these ideas reguarding hades/abrahams bosom had roots in pagans.



Luke 12:16 says it's a parable. Does it not?


I think its obvious enough that Jesus was simply using a well known myth from Jewish folklore to illustrate a point.

Its likely that Paul had "doctrinal errors" like this in mind when he wrote concerning "Jewish Fables:"

Titus 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.


Evidently people could talk to each other in Abraham's bosom and Hell, because in Luke 16 they did. That was a compartment that was divided.

divided compartments? Hardly? It says there was a "great chasm" between them.

And if the saved went to "abraham's bosom" where did abraham go? The verse says:

23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

also note

this passage is not talking about souls - its talking about BODIES.

The man in Hades had a tounge and needed water. Why would a soul have a body part? Why would it need a material substance such as water? Lazarus had a "fingertip" . . .

Luke 12:16 says it's a parable. Does it not?

In a lot of Jesus' parables he does not specify that its a parable, so I don't see how this proves that Luke 16 is not one.

[Little Lamb]

7thwatch,

This is yet another thing we disagree on.

For one thing Jesus NEVER told myths. Are parables myths to you?

Show me where Jesus ever used names in His so called myths or parables besides in Luke 16.

[7thwatch]

Originally posted by Little Lamb


[QUOTE] For one thing Jesus NEVER told myths.

One purpose of the parables Jesus told was that they used everyday things in their culture. When the people would see those things, such as a field, they would be reminded of the lessons that he taught them.

In this parable Jesus used a common Jewish fable to make a point. His hearers would have been familiar with this story and would have recognized it instantly. He was not inventing a myth, he was merely using it. Now whenever those people heard that story they would think of the lesson that he brought out of it.

Jesus didn't invent the myth - he used it. And remember what Paul says:

Titus 1:14 "Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

Are parables myths to you?

two seperate things. This parable happens to utilize a common story of the day.

Show me where Jesus ever used names in His so called myths or parables besides in Luke 16.

One way or the other I really don't see how that would prove anything by itself, let alone when stacked up against IMO much more signifigant and convincing evidence. Lazarus was part of the story he was using in his parable. He may also have used it to draw attention to the real Lazarus, whom he later raised from the dead as one of the crowning evidences of his divinity.

I think that interpretation of Luke 16 is the best because it harmonizes with the rest of Jesus and the Bible's teaching on death, heaven, and hell.

[JayD]

I understand what you mean 7th. Its much like how I can use the Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter or anything else of popularity to help convey a mean to those I talk to.

But would this then mean in your opinion that the scene in Abrahams Bosom is a picture of something that is not really the case, but Jesus is using it (a story that some were familiar with) to show that once your seperated (death) theres no changing the past, or influencing the future?

[7thwatch]

Originally posted by JayD
But would this then mean in your opinion that the scene in Abrahams Bosom is a picture of something that is not really the case, but Jesus is using it (a story that some were familiar with) to show that once your seperated (death) theres no changing the past, or influencing the future?

certainly that is a good lesson that can be drawn from that story, but I don't think that was the main point.

The main point, imo, is this:

The rich man symbolized the Jewish nation, feasting on the Scriptures while the beggar at the gate--the Gentiles--were starving for the Word. Jesus concluded the parable with the observation that "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:31. Indeed, Jesus did later raise a man named Lazarus from the dead, and most of the Jewish leaders still did not believe.

There are a lot of things in the parable itself which lead me to beleive that its not a true story. I could go into more detail if you like.

Peace
7thwatch

[Little Lamb]

Since I can ask you anything, will I ever see the one who I'm in contact with from elementary school? It would be nice to see this person again.

[7thwatch]

Originally posted by Little Lamb
Since I can ask you anything, will I ever see the one who I'm in contact with from elementary school? It would be nice to see this person again.

7thwatch the 8ball says . . . (drumroll) . . .

Maybe.

How typical.

Peace
7thwatch

[Little Lamb]

Me thinks "Maybe" is a good answer. We'll see what happens. We just recently got in touch with each other after all these years.