Faith alone

[saved]

Water - Cleansing: Ezekial 36
Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

Breath (Spirit) - Rebirth: Ezekial 37
‘O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.’ “Thus says the Lord God to these bones, ‘Behold, I will cause breath to enter you that you may come to life. ‘And I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you, cover you with skin, and put breath in you that you may come alive; and you will know that I am the Lord. . . .
And I will put My Spirit within you, and you will come to life

It would make perfect sense for Jesus to tell Nicodemus that he had to be re-born from spiritual death and cleansed from his sin, which is what happens when we believe and are saved by God's grace.


Acts 8:35-38 - the Eunuch


he preached Jesus to him. And as they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?” [And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”] And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Acts 8:35-38
The eunuch believed, and then got baptized. Where would one get the idea that this teaches baptism as a necessary component of salvation? This has to be read into the narrative, for it is not expressed.

This is the problem you run into with trying to make doctrine out of historical narrative. The Bible accurately and truthfully records WHAT happened, but not always WHY. That is why only discursive / universal commands or statements are to be used to establish doctrine. When we try to use historical narratives we end up saying that anything that happened once to one person or group must be the norm for all people at all times.

For example - speaking in tongues. Extreme Pentecostals view the situation in Acts 2 as normative for every conversion experience. But why do they leave out the tongues of fire on people's heads? Why is it not always in an upper room? Why doesn't it only happen in Judea? You can't just pick one small part of a narrative and make it normative for all people at all times and in all places and ignore the rest. The fact that something occurred does not make it normative for anyone else.


Romans 6:3-4 - 'baptized into Christ'


Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
Romans 6:3-4
This passage also says nothing of the order of salvation and baptism. Those who believe would have been baptized, so this is inconclusive to either side. When we join with Christ we are partakers of this death and resurrection, that is not in question.

I have explained what baptism means and that its significance is the 'joining' - we are baptized in water, the Holy Spirit . . . lots of things. But the baptism in water joins us publicly to a message, our belief joins us to Christ.


1 Peter 3:20-21 - 'baptism now saves you'


And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
1 Peter 3:20-21



Peter is referring to water baptism - but note something here, he categorically states that it is not the water-bath that saves! Water does not join us to Christ, belief does. It is the 'joining factor' of Baptism that saves. Baptism is a physical act symbolizing one's acceptance or agreement with a certain teaching or leader.

This verse says that it is not the water but the appeal to God that saves.


Mark 16:16 - “He who believes and is baptized will be saved'

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Mark 16:16

Notice that it is belief that is the common denominator here. For instance, suppose one does not believe - he is condemned. If one believes and is baptized - saved. But what about one who simply believes? He cannot be condemned - for that would contradict the second part of the verse. If baptism is a necessary component of salvation then what would happen? Do they float somewhere between saved and unsaved? No - there are only two options, saved or unsaved, these are exhaustive categories. Therefore belief is the key (as John makes explicit in his gospel).



Acts 22:16 - 'wash away your sins'


‘And now why do you [Paul] delay? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.
Acts 22:16
If baptism washes away sin here then so does 'arising.' The verse says that Paul was to do three things (arise, be baptized, wash away sins). How? By calling on the Name of the Lord. It is that call that accomplishes the washing away of sins.


Conclusion

We should not attempt to get our doctrine from non-discursive passages - i.e. teachings from non-teaching passages. When we look at what is universally asserted in the Gospels and Epistles the plainest teachings are that belief = eternal life and faith = salvation. These are strong and undeniable statements that would seem to be misleading if works or deeds were additional requirements and only found in historical narratives depicting particular events in certain people's lives. In cases where historical passages seem to contradict assertions made elsewhere, especially in teaching passages, we must seek an alternative meaning - even if it is not the 'primary' meaning. The fact THAT something occurred does not necessarily explain WHY it occurred, and we should not overturn plain and simple universal assertions by universalizing particular events.

All believers should get baptized, for they are in disobedience if they will not. In the same way, believers should share their faith with others, do good, love, work, raise their family, follow moral and civil laws, etc. But these are all things that are to be done because of salvation and not for it.
Doug Beaumont

[Leo Volont]

Dear Saved,

You are confusing the process of conversion with a magical formula. The true test of Conversion is whether the person is any different than before -- not 'feel' different, that is, comfortable now in sin because he believes he is relieved of a guilty conscience. But is the person now "Perfect as The Father in Heaven is Perfect" . Now, the Catholic Church has produced a number of these Perfected Ones -- our great Saints. If you are talking about a fullfillment of a Promise, than you are talking about this platoon of illustrious Men. And what did they do to be thus washed of their sins? Well, everything that was asked of them by Christ -- that they pick up their crosses and follow him, and that they maintain an exemplary level of morality while at the same time loving all, serving all, and being the most humble. I suppose in two thousand years it would be difficult to count more than twenty names of those whom we would say qualified. But if twenty did qualify, it would have been sufficient to answer the Prophecy. Yet every Protestant whoremonger, thief and liar wish to step up for the honor. The miracle is that they aren't struck instantly dead for their arrogant presumption.

So what does Baptism confer? As you say, it is like a new birth. Not so much "salvation" as a chance for salvation. One is given an opportunity to separate from old sins. But remember what Christ told the Lady who narrowly escaped being stoned for adultary -- "Go and sin no more". Well, how many "born again" Prots can't go a week before they have sinned again? A day? Where possibly could the Holy Spirit be in a process like that, where the water has not yet dried before it is stained again?

And your quotes from Paul. "Baptized in the Death of Christ". Really, now. This was all part of his Easy Salvation argument. Christ did all the work so go free and sin all you like! However, remember that Paul and the Acts talk about those with the Holy Spirit and they talk about Prophets, and with out ever mentioning Paul in the same breath. Therefore, Paul doesn't know what he is talking about. What we have is Paul's reasonings about things. Not Divine Revelation. Just his thoughts. And what does he think? He thinks that a Baptism that Christ had been giving all throughout His Ministry is a Baptism into His Death. No. It may have been, and should be a Baptism into His Suffering, which we should participate in, but not into the Fruits of His Death. These belong to The Church, as the Sap belongs to the Vine. Baptism is the watering of the Seed, but Christ Himself talks at length about the many ways the Growth of the Seed may be aborted in failure and sterility.

You find the word "belief" to be magical. Well, read the first letter of John. He who believes will do. Belief that remains a mere idea is that sterile seed that never grows. If you believe the Teachings of Christ then you will pick up your cross and follow Him into suffering, and righteousness, or humility, love and servitude toward the Divine Will. Anything less than Sainthood is you simply entertaining an opinion. No where does it say that "He who entertains an Opinion of Christ will be Saved". As John had said, "even the Demons believe in Christ, but that doesn't save them, does it?"

I like your conclusion -- that we should except our Doctrines from those Scriptures that are deliberately setting forth Doctrine. Therefore The Church has zeroed in on The Sermon of the Mount, The Last Supper, and The Ascention -- those cardinal moments when Christ was instructing His Church Leaders on Doctrine and Direction. But all your quotes seem incidental. How is it that you can make a huge argument from incidentals and then conclude that one should not give incidentals more weight that they deserve. It appears that you grew wiser with the writing. Now go back and do it over, since you seem to be smarter now than when you begun.

[saved]

hello Leo,
the catholic false teachings that any there are those who deserve God's grace is simply not of the Lord. The idea that baptism opens the door for grace is another false teaching that they have spawned. Scripture makes it clear that we are saved by grace through faith. Nothing else is needed. Any addition makes grace void and all who follow such teachings of sacraments or ordiances for salvation are accursed according to scripture.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by saved
hello Leo,
the catholic false teachings that any there are those who deserve God's grace is simply not of the Lord. The idea that baptism opens the door for grace is another false teaching that they have spawned. Scripture makes it clear that we are saved by grace through faith. Nothing else is needed. Any addition makes grace void and all who follow such teachings of sacraments or ordiances for salvation are accursed according to scripture.

You need to wake up! You are looking at Scripture and putting your own optimistic spin on things, and then hoping for the best. But if you look up and take a look around, you will see that there have only been a relative few Saints throughout History that have actually been touched by the Holy Spirit. You think that Christ made His Promise to Everyone. But if we look at what really happened, only a Few People in All of History have received the Promised Blessings of Christ. That means that the rest of us have a real problem, no? Kidding yourself that by repeating some magic formula you will be 'saved' when you can offer not a single supernatural proof for it, is just a waste of energy. You need to find out what you are doing wrong and start doing it right. Pretending you don't have a problem is your worst problem!

[saved]

Leo,
the reason that you cannot accept that the Holy Spirit lives in all og God's children is because you claim to be one by works and the only way to become one is by faith. We who are being saved know in whom we believe and know that He is able to keep us until that day. If you turn from works to faith you too can have what we who are saved have.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by saved
hello Leo,
the catholic false teachings that any there are those who deserve God's grace is simply not of the Lord. The idea that baptism opens the door for grace is another false teaching that they have spawned. Scripture makes it clear that we are saved by grace through faith. Nothing else is needed. Any addition makes grace void and all who follow such teachings of sacraments or ordiances for salvation are accursed according to scripture.

You talk about "Scripture", when you are really saying Paul the Antichrist. Read the Gospels. You will find that your Do Nothing Salvation doesn't fly unless you have resort to the teachings of a Murderous Heretic who teaches his own separate Doctrines. You will find it impossible to maintain your position if you stay in the Four books that you were meant to stay in.

The Bible was meant to be a reference material in the days before there was a printing press. They saved Paul so that everybody would know what real heretical writing looked like. you want to know what a False Prophet is?... well go to the library and check out The bible and read the letters of Paul -- he is the Church's most famous Heretic. But then out came the Printing Press and they distributed the Bible everywhere, and you stupid Prots were too retarded to see what should be obvious. Christ and Paul present two different doctrines. Pick Christ and the Narrow Way, and drag your bleeding ass through a life of suffering to Heaven. Pick Paul and take the Easy Way to Hell.

[Greg]

saved,

Concerning scripture and tongues, Paul was not in the upper room yet he is the one who speaks the most concerning them.

You mentioned that they were in the upper room so why don't people today only speak in tongues in an upper room, do you pray only in an upper room?

the reason that you cannot accept that the Holy Spirit lives in all og God's children is because you claim to be one by works and the only way to become one is by faith. We who are being saved know in whom we believe and know that He is able to keep us until that day. If you turn from works to faith you too can have what we who are saved have.

Yes, Leo is incorrect, but so are you partially. Yes, we are saved by grace through faith but that is not where our faith is to stop. After our confession of Christ, our salvation experience, we are told to walk out our salvation, we are to renew our minds daily, and that we will produce "fruits." We are not to be just a hearer of the Word but a doer also. Do we not prove our faith through our works because we do our works by faith?

[Greg]

You talk about "Scripture", when you are really saying Paul the Antichrist. Read the Gospels. You will find that your Do Nothing Salvation doesn't fly unless you have resort to the teachings of a Murderous Heretic who teaches his own separate Doctrines. You will find it impossible to maintain your position if you stay in the Four books that you were meant to stay in.

Christ and Paul present two different doctrines.

Leo,

Here you go again, claiming Paul as the heretic and that he teaches doctrine seperate from Christ's. Please, I ask you again to show us the errancy in his teachings. You continually make charges of heresey against him but offer no real proof. It seems you have taken the same line of accusation towards Paul as did the church hierarchy had taken towards Christ.

Now, as for the venacular of your last post, which is just another in a line of many, by the use of your words you show the true nature of your heart. Did Mary tell you to treat people in such a way. Does she expect herfollowers to have a calloused heart and swear like a biker (I apologize to any good natured bikers, just borrowing a sterotype for illustration).

You paint a different picture of what following Mary is all about than what I thought it was. I always thought MAry listened to, followed and promoted the Words of Christ concerning love. Since you claim to folow her to the "t", viewing your actions and words I see I was wrong.

In your various posts on this board you show that apparently you do not really know what is expected from you not only as a Christian but even more so as a Catholic. You say elsewhere Mary promotes sevitude yet in this thread you are critical of the disciples because they "had her in the kitchen." I do not find where she was in the kitchen. The only Mary I find that even came close to being "in the kitchen" ws Mary, the sister of Martha ans Lazarus. I read more of where the disciples had the task of dealing with the food.

Why all the waffling back and forth?

[itsjustdave1988]

Greg,

The "error" of Paul is that he disagrees with Volontism. :rolleyes:

The really perplexing part is that the Catholic Church accepts Paul's epistles without doubt, calling him a true apostle and his writing the inspired and inerrant Word of God, and has done so since the 1st century. Leo claims to be Catholic, yet rejects essential Catholic teaching, as well as Protestant, and Orthodox teaching. Hmmm. I don't think St. Mary or Her Savior is very pleased. :(

[saved]

Originally posted by Greg
saved,

Concerning scripture and tongues, Paul was not in the upper room yet he is the one who speaks the most concerning them.

You mentioned that they were in the upper room so why don't people today only speak in tongues in an upper room, do you pray only in an upper room?



Yes, Leo is incorrect, but so are you partially. Yes, we are saved by grace through faith but that is not where our faith is to stop. After our confession of Christ, our salvation experience, we are told to walk out our salvation, we are to renew our minds daily, and that we will produce "fruits." We are not to be just a hearer of the Word but a doer also. Do we not prove our faith through our works because we do our works by faith?

Hello Greg,
I am not understanding your question about tongues, however I think that due to the subject that there should be another thread on tongues if there is a question about them. That subject is heavy enough.

As to your assertion that I am partially incorrect I disagree. The subject is salvation and salvation comes in a moment in time. There is no going back. Yes we have works that follow, but they have nothing to do with us getting saved or keeping it. Gal makes that clear. The truth is that the works continue because we are saved, not the reverse.

[Randy S]

The truth is that the works continue because we are saved, not the reverse.

Yes, that is the truth. It is interesting that the only place where the words "faith alone" appear together is in James, a teaching Book, where James says point blank that we are NOT saved by faith alone.

It's important to note, however, that James is not saying that we are saved by our own works, because the example James uses, "Abraham believed", is EXACTLY the same example that Paul uses when Paul declares that we are not saved by works.

James defines the choice to believe God as a work, and if you think about it, it certainly is, since making a decision for Christ is something that we do. But it is certainly not how most people think of "works".

I think there is a tendency among some, however, to believe that simply by saying a certain prayer, or feeling a certain way, that they "believe" and are saved. As I understand it the Bible teaches that believing in God includes a change of attitude of the heart: a transformation which Christ called being born again and which we often call conversion. We must be willing to cooperate with the Spirit and allow God to work a change of character in us. People who are converted do not fight against the Holy Spirit's work in their lives.

Probably no man knew Jesus better than the disciple John. And no other disciple, by tradition, enjoyed so many years of life in order to grow in Christ and record his thoughts. The little Book of 1 John is notable for it's discussion of the Christian's relationship to sin, particularly the end of the second chapter and the beginning of the third.

[saved]

Randy you are correct about James. Here is a word from the Lord Himself to prove what you said.

Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Faith does not mean that we simply declare that we believe the facts and we are saved. Acts says that it is repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. There seems to be some confusion about repentance. First there is no place in the new testament that says repent of your sin. We are simply told to repent. Acts gives a better understanding when it says repentance towards God.
In other words to repent means to turn to God. I do not have to know what He wants of me or accomplish a thing to be in a state of repentance. I simply want God in my life as He decides he should be. Repentance is done in spirit. We are also told to have faith in the Lord Jesus. Faith means to believe/trust someone or something. For instance. Some people believe fortune tellers. They base their lives on what they say. So they have faith in what they are told by them.
To have faith in Jesus is the same thing. We come to a point that we now are ready to trust Him. The evidence will be seen in how we live. If there is no change or a change that only lasts for a time then there is no real faith. True faith continues, but we do not have to accomplish a single thing to get saved. God looks at the heart and sees that faith is real and He saves us on the spot. After that he works in us to change us into the image of His Son. The work we do to get saved is believing on Jesus. Any addition to receiving salvation such as baptism, the Lord's table, or stopping certain things is a false doctrine and the bible puts a curse on ALL who teach such.

[Doma]

1 of 7 baptisms taught here:

http://www.kingdom-gospel.com/baptisms.html

2nd Baptism - Baptism into Water/into His Death/in the Name

Romans 6: MKJV
2 ... How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
3 Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we were buried with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father; even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Acts 8: MKJV
35 Then Philip opened his mouth and began at the same Scripture and preached the gospel of Jesus to him.
36 And as they passed along the way, they came on some water. And the eunuch said, See, here is water, what hinders me from being baptized?
37 Philip said, If you believe with all your heart, it is lawful. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still. And they both went down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch. And he baptized him.

Water baptism is a symbolic representation of what Christ has done for us. Just as the eunuch did with Philip. Being submersed into the water represents we died with Christ. Coming out of the water represents we have been raised with Christ into newness of life.

The 1st baptism is where God's incorruptible seed conceives new life in us. This baptism represents being born again.

1 Peter 1: nKJV
23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,

These are 2 separate acts. Being conceived by the incorruptible seed of the Word of God at the point of believing in Christ and His death for our sin and being born again and becoming a new creature.

2 Cor 5:17: Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

We can see these are 2 different works of God here:

John 1:12: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name

Receiving Him, is when He implants His seed in your heart, which happens when you believe. Only AFTER you have done this, does He give you the power to become a son of God.

How many believers are conceived but never born again? There are entire denominations which have many such believers. I myself became a believer when I was about 8 years old. When I was about 22 years old I became born again.

We must be born again.

John 3: MKJV
3 Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Being born again is more than just believing in Jesus and believing He died for your sins. Being born again is believing that you died with Him, and were raised into a new life in Christ.

I admonish everyone who is able and believes that they have died with Christ to go get water baptized. Water baptism doesn't get you into heaven, but is a confession to God and man of what Jesus has done for you. God understands if prison or living in a country where the church is persecuted or such circumstances forbid the water baptism. But those who are able should do so for their own conscience before God.

[saved]

Doma
may i ask what denomination you follow or are associated with?

[Doma]

my current pastor is an Assemblies of God pastor, but I chose him, not the denomination, and he is starting a new church and it is very independant. My beliefs are not based upon AG.

[saved]

Originally posted by Doma
my current pastor is an Assemblies of God pastor, but I chose him, not the denomination, and he is starting a new church and it is very independant. My beliefs are not based upon AG.

Thank you for the reply. I have another question and I am not trying to insult you, just asking. Would you be able to say absolutely that you will go to heaven or do you feel that you have to wait and see?

[Doma]

as a Lutheran I had been taught to believe we had no assurance. I am now born again and have assurance. I have peace and joy that hasn't and won't fade despite circumstances. I have seen fruit of the Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit. Yes I am fully persuaded of heaven for myself and my children.

[7thwatch]

1 John 5:13 - "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life."

Peace
7thwatch

[saved]

Originally posted by 7thwatch
1 John 5:13 - "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life."

Peace
7thwatch

Sounds like faith alone to me.

[7thwatch]

Originally posted by saved
Sounds like faith alone to me.

:boing:

[itsjustdave1988]

Martin Luther, cited in Kummel, W.G., The New Testament: The History of its Investigation and Problems:

'Faith justifies' [Rom 3:28] stands in flat contradiction to 'faith does not justify' [James 2:24]. If anyone can harmonize these sayings, I'll put my doctor's cap on him and let him call me a fool.

Rom 3:38 does not say "faith alone" justifies. James 2:24 does not say "faith alone" justifies. Both Paul and James teach loving obedience of faith as salvifically necessary. Luther can keep his doctor's cap, though he was most certainly a fool.

[itsjustdave1988]

In contrast to Martin Luther's view, Protestant scholar R.C. Sproul asserts that regeneration precedes faith.

Reformation theology insists that regeneration that changes the heart of the sinner must precede faith. My perception of the value of Christ must change before I will ever embrace him or personally trust him. Without that regenerating change, my response to Christ will mimic Satan's. (Faith alone: The Evangelical Doctrine of Justification, 87, cited by Sungenis, Not by faith alone, 233)

Do you agree? I'm trying to find a reference for why Luther held a contrary position. If you know of one, HELP!!