Open Minded Christians?????

[Greg]

Many who are "intellectually enlightened" are always calling Christians closed minded, saying that we need to open our minds and broaden our understanding. I have even had some professing "christians" tell me that to find the totallity of God one must look beyond the Bible and embrace other religions also.

The question being, should we as Christians hold the Bible as our only foundation of truth by which all other "truth" is measured or should we open our minds to other influences????

I give in support of becoming/staying cosed minded,

Matthew 7
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: KJV.


Matthew 7
(1) 13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. NKJV.

[Leo Volont]

Dear Greg,

Protestants are famously ignorant, but at least we know that it was a goal your were intentionlly pursuing.

Catholics, on the other hand, are not unwilling to walk through God's Garden and if we find anything good to consecrate it to Our Lady.

Now, yes, before a Catholic's Faith is strong and sure in his Doctrine, there might be some risk involved in looking at the philosophies of our Religious competitors. But a great big tree is no longer a little twig that needs to be fensed in. A huricane could not blow it over. With such assurance an Old Catholic may look at other Religions.

And what is there to find? Well, there have been many Catholics who have written on the subject of Mysticism and the dynamics of sacrifice and penance. But honestly, the Sanskrit Scholars of Hinduism have really done a wonderful job! And no one has put more thought into the renunciation of selfish desires than the Buddhists. And where Sufi Mysticism (the higher mystical expressions out of the Islamic Culture, which had their hey day before the Mogol and Turkish Invasions stamped them out for the most part) is not philosophically ahead of Catholic Mysticism, still, their stories are endlessly fascinating, and easily translated into Catholic terms.

No. The problem with Protestants is that any valid Religion would lead them away from their own anti-Religion. A Religion without sacrifice or righteousness is, indeed, not a Religion at all, but a seduction of Satan. That is the first thing you should learn.

[Greg]

Good to hear from a Catholic brother! I do have a question for you pertaining Mary and your following of her. Do you speak in tongues as she did? Acts 1:14 and Acts 2:1.

[me again]

Greg,

I read your first post, but I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. It sounds like you are advocating being "closed minded." :think:

[7thwatch]

Originally posted by me again
Greg,

I read your first post, but I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. It sounds like you are advocating being "closed minded." :think:

closed minded is a realative term. I think we should remain "closed minded" in the sense that Greg proposed. Not that we are not open to new ideas and christian truth, but we should reject anything contrary to the gospel, therefore we are classified as "closedminded." If that makes me closedminded, than I am proud of it.

Peace
7thwatch

[itsjustdave1988]

should we as Christians hold the Bible as our only foundation of truth

Hmmm. What does the Bible call the foundation of truth?

1 Tim 3:15 - "the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth"

Although, I think I agree with your point. Do we need anything other than "the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints." (Jude 1:3). I don't think so. While I enjoy studying other religions, it is done so out of interest in knowing other viewpoints, not because I believe the faith I hold needs to be added to.

[me again]

Yes, we should reject heresy. We discuss it and then invalidate it. That's not being closed minded. :me:

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Greg
Good to hear from a Catholic brother! I do have a question for you pertaining Mary and your following of her. Do you speak in tongues as she did? Acts 1:14 and Acts 2:1.

Our Lady of Grace appeared before a young Nun in 1830, Catherine "Zoe" Laborer, and showed her that she had three rings on each finger and from each ring emanated Graces for those who asked. Most of the rings glowed with brilliant light, but some were dim, and Our Lady told Zoe that some Graces are not prayed for.

It seems that nobody prays to mumble incoherently.

However, Saint Vincent Ferrer was famous for being able to tour all of Southern Europe and France and be understood by everyone to whom he spoke. He would speak to huge crowdes without electrical amplification and people were astounded that they could hear him from incredible distances. Also, he only spoke the Castillian dialect of Spanish, but even in the Teutonic Regions everyone understood him in their own tongue.

Our Lady appears to Her Visionarys and speaks their language with taste and refinement. There have been some amusing incidents. Once, when Our Lady appeared to the children of La Salette France she began speaking to them in Parisian French -- very high cultured French, and these were shepard children who spoke an obscure dialect know by only an isolated village or two. Our Lady was very emotional and was crying very hard because she was bringing very bad news (the wages of Sin were to bring a World Famine -- the Irish Potato Famine is how we remember it, but it was quite world wide). Anyway, the children were simply bewildered -- they could hardly pick out a word here and there. Finally Our Lady senses their discomfort and picks up Her head out of her hands and realizes the problem, and says "Oh, excuse me..." and starts over again speaking the patoi as eloquently and as beautifully as it certainly was ever spoken.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by me again
Yes, we should reject heresy. We discuss it and then invalidate it. That's not being closed minded. :me:

Excuse me, but aren't you a heretic?! Protestants are founded on permissive heresy. Is it not a part of your establishing doctrines that everyone will be free to apply their own conscience to interpretting scripture -- if this is not outright heresy itself, then it makes a heresy only of any Establishment that would impose a Standard of Orthodoxy, thus making the Catholic Church heretical for daring to impose criterias of belief.

No, anyone who murders millions of Catholics to confiscate their property, justifying it on the grounds that Faith alone brings Salvation and that all Law can safely be put aside -- such a person should not, can not speak about heresy. I'm surprised Justice doesn't strike a Protestant dead for even daring to think of the word 'heresy' without deep shame, guilt and remorse. A good slow turn over the fire would do all you protestants good.

[Cop4Christ]

Catholics are open minded I will give them that. Look where it got them though. Social gospel in the seminaries and the real gospel kicked out.

I flew on an airline the other day. I looked into the pilot and told him he was using some of the levers too much and some had barely any ware on them at all. I told him to lay off the worn ones for this trip. That arrogant closed minded pilot thought I was nuts. But who is to say he is right and I was wrong?

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Cop4Christ
Catholics are open minded I will give them that. Look where it got them though. Social gospel in the seminaries and the real gospel kicked out.



I don't know what you are refering to. In as few words as possible what is "real gospel" and what is "social gospel"?

[7thwatch]

Originally posted by Leo Volont


No, anyone who murders millions of Catholics to confiscate their property, justifying it on the grounds that Faith alone brings Salvation and that all Law can safely be put aside -- such a person should not, can not speak about heresy. I'm surprised Justice doesn't strike a Protestant dead for even daring to think of the word 'heresy' without deep shame, guilt and remorse. A good slow turn over the fire would do all you protestants good.

:eek:

Um, right. A good, slow reading of the bible might do you good too. Or would that make you a heretic? Oops, there is that word again . . . (I'm not dead yet)

By your same argument the Catholic church would be no better than prodestants because the Catholic church itself murdered countless people in the name of its "religion" . . . see the dark ages.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by 7thwatch
:eek:

Um, right. A good, slow reading of the bible might do you good too. Or would that make you a heretic? Oops, there is that word again . . . (I'm not dead yet)

By your same argument the Catholic church would be no better than prodestants because the Catholic church itself murdered countless people in the name of its "religion" . . . see the dark ages.

Propaganda. Any details? You make accusations about murder in order to insult the Mystical Body of Christ.

Also, we must be able to make distinctions. There are those who attack Civilization and those who defend it.

Christ enjoined the Church to be United in Body and in Doctrine. So what does one do when being overrun by heretics? The Catholic Church was able to stave off Rebellion for hundreds of years. The Problem was obviously not a matter of not enough enforcement, but too little. If Luther had been drawn and quartered, we would have still had the One Church that Christ had asked of us. But what Christ says has so little pull with you people -- if only Paul had spoke of unity (I'm sure he does, but only in the context of solidying his own political power against that of the Real Apostles).

[7thwatch]

Originally posted by Leo Volont
Propaganda. Any details?

your very own Catholic church has owned up to its history. Propoganda? hardly. Try reading a history book. Even your own church admits its history.

You make accusations about murder in order to insult the Mystical Body of Christ.

Strawman!!! Really, where do you get this stuff . . . this is crazy stuff.

Also, we must be able to make distinctions. There are those who attack Civilization and those who defend it.

Christ enjoined the Church to be United in Body and in Doctrine. So what does one do when being overrun by heretics? The Catholic Church was able to stave off Rebellion for hundreds of years. The Problem was obviously not a matter of not enough enforcement, but too little. If Luther had been drawn and quartered, we would have still had the One Church that Christ had asked of us. But what Christ says has so little pull with you people -- if only Paul had spoke of unity (I'm sure he does, but only in the context of solidying his own political power against that of the Real Apostles).

so you are in favor of more killing, more vengance, on the part of the Catholic church? You scare me man. I hope I never meet you because you might try to slit my throat and feel justified for doing it. Did Jesus try to squash out the false doctrine of the priests by killing them? Would he condone such behavior? You do know that murder is a sin, right?

Besides, the bible says "Vengeance is Mine, and recompense; Their foot shall slip in due time; For the day of their calamity is at hand, And the things to come hasten upon them." Deuteronomy 32:35

[Greg]

Dawg gone us protestants, how dare we worship Jesus Christ the Lord and saviour of mankind when we should partially bury an upright bath tub in our yard and worship a concrete idol made in the image of a dead woman. And we are the ones considered to be heretics! Go figure!

[7thwatch]

Originally posted by Greg
Dawg gone us protestants, how dare we worship Jesus Christ the Lord and saviour of mankind when we should partially bury an upright bath tub in our yard and worship a concrete idol made in the image of a dead woman. And we are the ones considered to be heretics! Go figure!

:lol: :lol:

oh my that was funny. thanks. I needed that.

Peace
7thwatch

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by 7thwatch
:lol: :lol:

oh my that was funny. thanks. I needed that.

Peace
7thwatch

You pay lip service to Christ. All your doctrines come from Paul. You are followers of Paul.

Mary isn't dead.

And once again you insult the Mother of the Guy you say you worship. You just can't get your story straight. Everything is consistant with you devils being of the Anti-Christ. What conceivable Christian would have called Mary Mother of God a 'dead woman'? You were only trying to be funny? Laugh in Hell.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by 7thwatch
your very own Catholic church has owned up to its history. Propoganda? hardly. Try reading a history book. Even your own church admits its history.



Strawman!!! Really, where do you get this stuff . . . this is crazy stuff.



so you are in favor of more killing, more vengance, on the part of the Catholic church? You scare me man. I hope I never meet you because you might try to slit my throat and feel justified for doing it. Did Jesus try to squash out the false doctrine of the priests by killing them? Would he condone such behavior? You do know that murder is a sin, right?

Besides, the bible says "Vengeance is Mine, and recompense; Their foot shall slip in due time; For the day of their calamity is at hand, And the things to come hasten upon them." Deuteronomy 32:35

Propaganda! I ask for details and you only give me another evasion. I must know what the Catholic Church is admitting too, mustn't I. Remember, the Catholic Church admits to another thing, to having Mason's infiltrated within. Why, these traitors might admit anything for a membership in the Country Club. So let me admit what I will admit. I know I am no Mason.

What's this Strawman chant of yours. Every time I catch you blundering you blame it on the strawman. Is he not you. Are you not both Protestants enough to stick together? But I guess if you will betray Christ and Our Lady I should not expect you to much support each other. Afterall, you started with Martin Luther and now you have, what, three thousand Separate Doctrines. There indeed is a lot of back stabbing. Each new Church involved a New Pastor telling his old Pastor to go to hell. But for some reason this is not to be characterized as Satanic.


Yes, bring on the killing contest anew. if you've been keeping score, the Catholics are still way behind. We need to take back all of Northern Europe and England. The only thing that would be fair is to kill anybody who stands in one of your heretical church doors. That is what you did to us, and that is what we ought to do to you.

Of course, you could not kill us all, and so you set up laws to take away all our rights and property hoping that that would turn us around. It did for the most part, among the English, a race that sold its soul before it would let itself be martyred. But many Catholics stood firm. No, I would rather not have any Protestants left. Recant or be burned alive. You worship Paul, so much, lets see if you would be willing to die for his unique doctrines.

Christ said that the day would come when we would have need of the sword. John, whom Jesus Loved, in Revelations makes a battle seem quite inevitable. And, indeed, Vengence is the Lord's, and so that is why I say "bring it on", because although the Protestant Powers have the Catholic Powers out-gunned some 20 to 1, with God on the Catholic Side, I prefer the odds. Besides, the Catholic Church grows from the Blood of its Martyrs. So Win, we Win. And lose, we Win. Bring it on... (edited by moderator) Leo, there is no name calling allowed. Don't let it happen again. Tom

[Greg]

Mr Volont,

Just so you know who did it, I have reported your last post to the moderator because of your closing statement. I understand that discussions and argurements can get heated but there is no need what so ever for vulgarity and direct personal attack.

[7thwatch]

Originally posted by Leo Volont
Propaganda! I ask for details and you only give me another evasion. I must know what the Catholic Church is admitting too, mustn't I. Remember, the Catholic Church admits to another thing, to having Mason's infiltrated within. Why, these traitors might admit anything for a membership in the Country Club. So let me admit what I will admit. I know I am no Mason.

Let me get this straight. Are you denying that the Roman Catholic church was reponsible for the murders of countless protestants during the middle ages?

What's this Strawman chant of yours. Every time I catch you blundering you blame it on the strawman. Is he not you.

I guess it went over your head. Let me quote a good explanation of what it is:

The strawman argument is created when a person misrepresents the opposing argument then knocks the stuffing out of it. Feels like a great victory, looks good but has no meaning. It is dishonest.

Yes, bring on the killing contest anew. if you've been keeping score, the Catholics are still way behind. We need to take back all of Northern Europe and England. The only thing that would be fair is to kill anybody who stands in one of your heretical church doors. That is what you did to us, and that is what we ought to do to you.

Leviticus 19:18" 'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD

Mark 12:31 - "The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."


You pay lip service to Christ

you don't appear to even have gotten that far:

Bring it on... (edited by moderator) Leo, there is no name calling allowed. Don't let it happen again. Tom

James 1:26 - "If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless."

[swtsnshyn]

No, I would rather not have any Protestants left. Recant or be burned alive. You worship Paul, so much, lets see if you would be willing to die for his unique doctrines. (The bold in this quote is mine.)
Leo Volont,
I do not pretend to speak for all prostestants. However, out of all the prostestants I know, not one of them worships Paul, his doctrines, or any other apostle or doctrine, etc. Please stop spreading hate for brothers and sisters in Christ, which is contrary to our Lord. :naw:


God Bless!!
Dawn
Shining brightly for Jesus :)

[7thwatch]

Originally posted by swtsnshyn
Leo Volont,
I do not pretend to speak for all prostestants. However, out of all the prostestants I know, not one of them worships Paul, his doctrines, or any other apostle or doctrine, etc. Please stop spreading hate for brothers and sisters in Christ, which is contrary to our Lord. :naw:


God Bless!!
Dawn
Shining brightly for Jesus :)

here is one protestant who agrees with you anyway :banana: :banana:

[Greg]

Even if she wasn't my wife, I would have to say I completely agree with her. You go girl!!!!:banana: :banana: :banana:

[itsjustdave1988]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by swtsnshyn
Leo Volont,
I do not pretend to speak for all prostestants. However, out of all the prostestants I know, not one of them worships Paul, his doctrines, or any other apostle or doctrine, etc. Please stop spreading hate for brothers and sisters in Christ, which is contrary to our Lord.


God Bless!!
Dawn
Shining brightly for Jesus
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
here is one protestant who agrees with you anyway

Here's one Catholic who agrees with you too. :D

However, I would count Greg's implication of idol worship by Catholics in the same category.

[Greg]

However, I would count Greg's implication of idol worship by Catholics in the same category.

Has not Mary been set up within the Catholic Church in such a way as to be worshipped??? Is she not prayed to????

If I am wrong please clairify my error and I will gladly and quickly repent of any misguided implications.:banana:

[itsjustdave1988]

Greg,

See my reply here:

Does Catholicism teach or promote Mary worship?
http://www.theologyreview.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=409

[Eveningstar]

Sole minded Christains are not close minded. Their minds are opened by God Himself.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Greg
Mr Volont,

Just so you know who did it, I have reported your last post to the moderator because of your closing statement. I understand that discussions and argurements can get heated but there is no need what so ever for vulgarity and direct personal attack.

Tattal tale!

And I was talking to 7th, by the way -- who probably recognized the quaint cliche humor I was emulating. But such fine nuances are beyond you, no?

[Leo Volont]

Dear 7th,

There were no Protestants during the Middle Ages. The Protestant Reformation was only 500 years ago. But yes, Secular Rulers of Catholic domains did use force to expel heretics and to put down heretical rebellions. The distinction here is that the Catholic Church was the Legitimate Church established by Christ. You might as well say that God used force to expel Satan from Heaven and so that makes God as bad as Satan. That isn't what you are saying is it. Personally, I don't see the problem. If I could snap my finger and every Protestant drop over dead... wait a second... if you are still alive it didn't work.

I like the Strawman Thing. It seems like reductio ad absurdum -- to follow out one's opponent's arguments until they seem ridiculous. As long as the premises are held in parallel and the dynamics of the argument remain the same, your Strawman seems a valid attack. But you must hate it because you are perpetually open to it. This means that your argument has vulnerable premises and dynamics. Not a good thing. Let me know the next time I do it, so I may appreciate my craft all the more.

I love the Leviticus quote -- don't bear malice toward one of your own people. But are you one of my own people? I'm Catholic. I wear the Green. You're Orange. If I do malice unto you, then the lads back at the Pub buy me a guiness. Now, its those boys that I should have no malice toward, since when Mary goes by in Procession, we all touch are knee to the ground simultaneously, while you Orange can't even take your hats off. No, we are not the same people. You made yourself the enemy, and you can stay that way. You took your shot. Now don't turn into cowardly little girls before we can take ours.

But you did get me with the James quote. I suppose I should someday take a vow of silence, but that is not what Our Lady asked of me, is it?

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Greg
Has not Mary been set up within the Catholic Church in such a way as to be worshipped??? Is she not prayed to????

If I am wrong please clairify my error and I will gladly and quickly repent of any misguided implications.:banana:

As Dave points out, the Vatican says that liturgical action directed toward Mary is by definition NOT Worship.

But yes, I drop to the very same knee infront of Mary as I do before Christ. I cross myself in exactly the same way. And yes, I admit it, if anything, I remember Mary more than I do Her Son. But I am absolutely sure that Her Son, My Brother isn't jealous.


Why. Mary is the Highest Human Being. She is without Original Sin. She is as pure as Adam and Eve would have been had they remained Obedient to God. She is the Highest of All Creatures and even the Angels, who are a little above Man in Spiritual Rank, willingly bow before Her.

But yes, it is a symbol and rallying point of the Protestant Rebellion to smash Her icons and insult Her at every opportunity. You never let a chance pass, do you.

You know, what you people never think, is that Mary is actually Jesus's mommy. Paul made you people a lot of promises, but its up to Jesus to keep them, but you never stop insulting His mommy. Theology aside, and just on the human level, what do you think Jesus really owes you after all this repeated abuse and insult delivered in derision to His mommy? You simply have no common sense.

[7thwatch]

There were no Protestants during the Middle Ages. The Protestant Reformation was only 500 years ago. But yes, Secular Rulers of Catholic domains did use force to expel heretics and to put down heretical rebellions. The distinction here is that the Catholic Church was the Legitimate Church established by Christ. You might as well say that God used force to expel Satan from Heaven and so that makes God as bad as Satan. That isn't what you are saying is it. Personally, I don't see the problem. If I could snap my finger and every Protestant drop over dead... wait a second... if you are still alive it didn't work.

But there were "heretics" . . . protestants, heretics, all the same to you right?

I like the Strawman Thing. It seems like reductio ad absurdum -- to follow out one's opponent's arguments until they seem ridiculous. As long as the premises are held in parallel and the dynamics of the argument remain the same, your Strawman seems a valid attack.

I must not have done a good job of explaning it to you. The strawman arguement does nothing of the sort. Its not following an opponents arguments to their conclusion, it misrepresenting an opponents position . . . making it a different position. See link below.

But you must hate it because you are perpetually open to it. This means that your argument has vulnerable premises and dynamics. Not a good thing. Let me know the next time I do it, so I may appreciate my craft all the more.

Nothing of the sort. Nice try though. Check out this thread which has a better explanation (and in which you are used as an example!): http://www.theologyreview.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=408

I love the Leviticus quote -- don't bear malice toward one of your own people. But are you one of my own people? I'm Catholic. I wear the Green. You're Orange. If I do malice unto you, then the lads back at the Pub buy me a guiness. Now, its those boys that I should have no malice toward, since when Mary goes by in Procession, we all touch are knee to the ground simultaneously, while you Orange can't even take your hats off. No, we are not the same people. You made yourself the enemy, and you can stay that way. You took your shot. Now don't turn into cowardly little girls before we can take ours.

Perhaps this one will suit you better:

Matthew 5:

43 You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'

44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,