Is it ever right to lie?

[Zaph]

Is it ever right to lie? If you were to ask this question in a circle of christians, you'd get a variety of answers. Some would say that it is ok if it will save someones life or little "white lies" are ok to keep someone from being hurt and/or offended. Is that really true since Jesus is our example and no guile was found in His mouth? And of course there is the command "Thou shalt not bear false witness...", does it come and go with circumstances? There are also a number of other Bible texts that talk about telling lies.

I personally believe there is never a circumstance where it is right to lie. However, after saying that, there are a couple of seemily difficult Bible passages. Below is one of them.
1Sa 16:1 And the LORD said unto Samuel, How long wilt thou mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel? fill thine horn with oil, and go, I will send thee to Jesse the Bethlehemite: for I have provided me a king among his sons.
1Sa 16:2 And Samuel said, How can I go? if Saul hear it, he will kill me. And the LORD said, Take an heifer with thee, and say, I am come to sacrifice to the LORD.
1Sa 16:3 And call Jesse to the sacrifice, and I will shew thee what thou shalt do: and thou shalt anoint unto me him whom I name unto thee.
At first glance it seems the Lord has told Samuel to tell a partial truth in order to deceive Saul from the true intentions. I think I might have the answer to this perplexing situation. But I'd like to hear what other people believe.

[Eurogal]

:hi: Hi Zaph,

In general we both agree that lying in any form is wrong. However, all of us moving around in our Christian enviroments of Church fellowshipping and home enviroment, have experienced being lied to or ourselves lying to another in a small degree. Grey colored lies (the ones not so easily detectable) verses the red-hot orange color obvious lies are treated by most of us as survival-instinct knee-jerks that appear necessary at times. Believe me....I don't practice lying. Most know me as being overly candid and direct. I even have made enemies out of friends that way with not using ambiguousness in relating truth.

So you have opened here a very important topic of social habit that affects our understanding of the ninth Commandment. However, is lying about something different than about giving a false witness about one's neighbor. Does the 9thC preclude never ever keeping back a bit of information so to veil the whole complex truth of the matter? Is there never a time to call upon keeping certain facts from certain people who would otherwise misuse those facts? This needs to be discussed indepth. The usual pattern of saving another's person hide by covering up for them with a falsehood or misleading information is for many a moral conflict. But it has been done more time than we know of.

I know what "I" would do in brisant situations that could lead to the death of an innocent one and my words could influence the situation. But my view is not fully riped out on bible principle nor can I debate why I would do or say such and such. At present my conviction is emotionally influenced with the higher value of saving a person's life over my legalistic stubborness of keeping what I hold as an absolute law.

We need to look at the 9thC and determine just what it is saying.

We need to talk out what is falsehood, deceitfulness, unfaithfulness to truth.

We need to weigh up motivation and ask if having a good purpose justifies lying.

We need to ask how an act of lying can promote the glory of God, "IF EVER".

I am convinced that the obligations of God's holy law governing our relationships to others are unchanging. Now we need to understand whether or not they are so absolute in their interpretation.

Eurogal

[Zaph]

Eurogal, let me quote one or two of your comments and ask a question or two. Ok.. here we go. You said... In general we both agree that lying in any form is wrong. Then later in your message you said this... At present my conviction is emotionally influenced with the higher value of saving a person's life over my legalistic stubborness of keeping what I hold as an absolute law.
How do you reconcile those two statements? and... Is it legalistic to NOT steal?

[Eurogal]

First Samuel 16 shows the allowance to reveal truth in part without lying directly. To anoint one to be king was to involve an offering. Sam was instructed by the Lord to do his thing in stages.The Lord didn't tell him before he went to Bethlehem family of Jesse that a son there by the name of David was to be anointed. Only after the offering ceremony was the selection from the sons of Jesse upon David given by divine guidance. Perhaps if Sam would have know he might have said too much and Saul's men might have mucked up God's plans. This way Sam didn't lie directly but knew that the full truth which he himself didn't have wasn't profitable at that moment to be known.

[Eurogal]

It's semantics, Zaph...

Deception is not always lying. Using cunning in a wise way is not lying. Bearing false witness is slander in the first degree. However, we would not call slander deception.

I believe as you that an deliberate act of deviating from the truth can be described as deception when it is not an outright lie. For instance, the questioning technique of lawyers is to ask questions of which they themselves already know the answer in 99% of the questionings. Are they lying or deceiving to give the impression they are in the dark about something and are looking for the truth? Didn't Jesus our Lord use this technique? God walking in the garden of Eden used this technique of asking questions when surely he already knew what had happened after the sin act.

The issue here on topic is lying and not stealing. When is a lie remotely ever acceptable when we shield the innocent from death. Death is a very permanant thing. The value of someone's life who is innocent and being persecuted for injust reasons would (if this was such a case I was to get involved in) probably cause me to go against the law of the land to hand out the sought for persecuted one. I am the type to hide Jews and join the French resistance underground. But like l say, a good part of my conviction is baised on my sum total within me of how I weigh up justice when facing death of one commited to my care over a deceptive lie used to protect them.

The question comes up again and again just how far from the full truth are we Christians allow to stray? Fabrications are fiction. We watch fictiion on TV and read fiction stories, we use parables in sermons that are fictitious, we teach our children by using fictitious fabricated story children books. Is that not exposing our minds and children's minds to lies after deceptive lies? When actually are made up fabrications alright to read or view but wrong to apply to a life and death situation?

I worked in medical places in the past where we were telling patients who were really off kiltered in reality perception just what they wanted to hear so they would not get aggitated unnecessarily. Along the motto "fight fire with fire" to avoid an uncontrolable blaze.

Eurogal

[cdhale]

The fact is that lying is wrong. No doubt. But occasionally, things come into conflict and one must choose the lesser of two evils. For example, in Exodus 1, we read of the midwives who delivered the Jewish babies. Pharoah told them to kill the baby boys. They did not, but rather told Pharoah that the Jewish women were too strong and had the babies before they arrived (which was not true, hence a lie). God blessed them for that.

So saving a life is more important that holding to a standard of not telling a lie.

Since God blessed them, and I don't think He would do that if what they did was evil, then it was OK to lie in that instance.

clint

[Zaph]

Eurogal, we can disagree and still be friends right? :) You said... The issue here on topic is lying and not stealing. However, are they not the same? Seem like an odd question doesn't it? But in the book of James we learn they all tied together like a chain. Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jer 48:10 Cursed be he that doeth the work of the LORD deceitfully, and cursed be he that keepeth back his sword from blood.

I honestly don't think the Lord told Samuel to tell a half-truth and I have a reason for that :)

[Zaph]

Clint, maybe I am wrong but I don't think we can ever look to a human for an example to follow when they act immorally (sp?). To be honest I think they robbed God of a greater miracle that HE could have done for them and built their faith. Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Proverbs 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
It is true that the Lord will bless our failings at times. However, wouldn't be even better to follow HIS words before trying to come up with our own solutions? Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

[cdhale]

I don't know. Paul said the OT was given to us as an example. I would think that would mean that we should learn from the OT folks, both what to do (the good) and what not to do (the bad).

I would agree with you if there was a place where God said, "you know, I would have blessed those midwives much more, had they not lied." Instead the scripture seems to hold them up as virtuous.

Your comment is truly an argument from silence.

clint

[me again]

The Supreme Court of the United States has ruled that it is legal for a law enforcement officer to lie to a suspect, but only to "get the truth" out of him.

:think:

Here is a scenario where I, as a law enforcement officer, lied to "get the truth" out of a suspect:A woman was the "look out" for her boyfriend while he was committing a burglary. She was sitting in her car out front. I caught and arrested her, but the boyfriend eluded us and we had no idea who he was.

I questioned her for about 30 minutes, trying to get her to tell me who he was, but she refused. When we got to the jail, I finally lied to her by telling her that we had finally surrounded her boyfriend in a house and said that he was holed up and was refusing to come out. I told her that we were going to have to negociate with him to try and get him to come out and I inquisitively asked, "Who is he? Who are we negociating with?" And she then told me his name.

If I had not conjured up this "lie," then she would have never told me the suspect's name and the burglary would have remained unsolved.Was this an ethical lie? :confused: :think:

[cdhale]

you are a sneaky rascal, aren't you.

I vote it was OK

clint

[kevingaily]

Here's some food for thought.... Rahab's lying saved the lives of the Hebrew spies and saved her family as well. Everyone else perished... including the animals! Then we see her in the geneology of Christ and she is also in the Hall of faith in Hebrews!!!! Read below....

Joshua 2

Rahab and the Spies

1 Then Joshua son of Nun secretly sent two spies from Shittim. "Go, look over the land," he said, "especially Jericho." So they went and entered the house of a prostitute [1] named Rahab and stayed there.
2 The king of Jericho was told, "Look! Some of the Israelites have come here tonight to spy out the land." 3 So the king of Jericho sent this message to Rahab: "Bring out the men who came to you and entered your house, because they have come to spy out the whole land."
4 But the woman had taken the two men and hidden them. She said, "Yes, the men came to me, but I did not know where they had come from. 5 At dusk, when it was time to close the city gate, the men left. I don't know which way they went. Go after them quickly. You may catch up with them." 6 (But she had taken them up to the roof and hidden them under the stalks of flax she had laid out on the roof.) 7 So the men set out in pursuit of the spies on the road that leads to the fords of the Jordan, and as soon as the pursuers had gone out, the gate was shut.
8 Before the spies lay down for the night, she went up on the roof 9 and said to them, "I know that the LORD has given this land to you and that a great fear of you has fallen on us, so that all who live in this country are melting in fear because of you. 10 We have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red Sea [2] for you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to Sihon and Og, the two kings of the Amorites east of the Jordan, whom you completely destroyed. [3] 11 When we heard of it, our hearts melted and everyone's courage failed because of you, for the LORD your God is God in heaven above and on the earth below. 12 Now then, please swear to me by the LORD that you will show kindness to my family, because I have shown kindness to you. Give me a sure sign 13 that you will spare the lives of my father and mother, my brothers and sisters, and all who belong to them, and that you will save us from death."
14 "Our lives for your lives!" the men assured her. "If you don't tell what we are doing, we will treat you kindly and faithfully when the LORD gives us the land."
15 So she let them down by a rope through the window, for the house she lived in was part of the city wall. 16 Now she had said to them, "Go to the hills so the pursuers will not find you. Hide yourselves there three days until they return, and then go on your way."
17 The men said to her, "This oath you made us swear will not be binding on us 18 unless, when we enter the land, you have tied this scarlet cord in the window through which you let us down, and unless you have brought your father and mother, your brothers and all your family into your house. 19 If anyone goes outside your house into the street, his blood will be on his own head; we will not be responsible. As for anyone who is in the house with you, his blood will be on our head if a hand is laid on him. 20 But if you tell what we are doing, we will be released from the oath you made us swear."
21 "Agreed," she replied. "Let it be as you say." So she sent them away and they departed. And she tied the scarlet cord in the window.
22 When they left, they went into the hills and stayed there three days, until the pursuers had searched all along the road and returned without finding them. 23 Then the two men started back. They went down out of the hills, forded the river and came to Joshua son of Nun and told him everything that had happened to them. 24 They said to Joshua, "The LORD has surely given the whole land into our hands; all the people are melting in fear because of us."


Hebrews 11
31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.


So her lie got her and her family saved from destruction, the honor of being in the geneology of Christ, and classified as a woman of faith!!! :D

Question: What would we have to read about her had she not lied and hidden the spies? My guess is that she would have died, her family as well, she would not be in Christ's geneology, and not mentioned in the hall of faith. Now if I can just use this to justify not going to work next week.....(LOL) :D :banana: :crackup:


Blessings, :) :crackup:

[me again]

I had totally forgotten about Rahab. :think:

[Eurogal]

We are all glad to know that our Ed-sysop is going up the ladder of education to help him get away from the LEO job requiring such behavior with suspects. He will in time be saddled into a better work enviroment where hopefully the practice of sticking to truthful measures will be practiced.


Today I came back here for some reading in this topic of 'Lying' thead and noticed something which I wrote needing to be corrected.

I wrote up there in one of the messages :
"Deception is not always lying. Using cunning in a wise way is not lying. Bearing false witness is slander in the first degree. However, we would not call slander deception."

I must confess that what I wrote was how I really thought at the moment back then.But now I see it as being rather "flakey". I am sorry for offending the more sensitive ones reading and noticing my waffeling. I was fooling myself. I was trying to justify spiritual misdemeanors and believe we can get away with it, while staying pure in heart before God. No....such doesn't cut right. I don't think any type of mimicking worldly ways ever to get to a goal (the-end-justifies-the-means type of wheeling and dealing) is godly.

Kevin said "... Rahab's lying saved the lives of the Hebrew spies and saved her family as well."
We are in the danger of teaching our young-in-the-faith children-of-God reading here that lying is under circumstances acceptable way of serving God. This is really wrong thinking. Rahab is in the Faith Hall of Fame because of her fear-respect to the One true God she heard about. She had determined in her heart already that the MonoDiety of the Hebrews was truly greater in might than what the pagan gods of her clan offered. Her "faith in the one true God" saved her and put her in right relationship to God for salvation. Not her lying. The lies did not save her or her family. The pure attitude of heart to God in belief did. She got instruction in the Jewish faith later, was converted with her whole family and became Jews, and keep the law of God in faith motivated by love.

I feel a great responsibility not to teach ever that through a lie we can work the works of righteousness.
Jesus is not the father of lies.
Integrety of character is extremely important in our santification development while on earth waiting for the Judgement time we are to confront after our resurrection. We as Christians have been called to be Christians. The Jesus Christ type Christians. Not the phoney type christians in name only with no substance of godliness. We alive ones on earth at present are in the process of salvation. We have the promise of the Holy Spirit to lead us into truth. It sure would be an oxymoron for the Holy Spirit to lead us to lie to accomplish some victory over the evil one.

Only at Judgement day are we going to be 'chosen' for eternal life. The character and fruit of actions from our living out our Faith in God will be weighed in the balance to prove we are not hiding a character of disobedience to the laws of God. The last thing heaven needs in eternity is one of us called ones being chosen with a character of rebellion or beligerance to the will of God in our hearts. The Lord God is seeing to the matter of 'chosing' those for heaven who won't be doing any rebelling like Lucifer did way back then.

I sure do not want to muck up my character development now by practicing lying, deceiving, living for fiction or talking fictional nonsense, supporting shady deals or being a user of falsehood for fraudulent purposes. I have my eyes set on a heavenly goal and am working out the salvation given me with fear and trembling.

Eurogal

[Eurogal]

....and furthermore, may I please add something else here from my study for today----

Misleading falsehood.
An act of deceiving.
An illusion given to distract from the full truth.
Cheating through bluffing.
Creating some delusion using a façade.
Feigning truth in order to be fraudulent.
Using guile to hinder or obscure proper truthful insights into a matter.
Using pretence in a scullduggery way.
Speaking ambiguiousness through evasive answers.
Abscuring reality through pretensiousness.
------------------------------------------All of the above will not ever occur in our eternal afterlife with God and with Jesus as King of Kings in Heaven or on the New Earth habitat.

What then allows us confessing Christians, to ever have the right to use any of the above means for the sake of grabbing advantages in social interactions? Why is it so important for a Christian Believer to achieve something by using lies? Is it not a matter of protecting our PRIDE by saving face when we do lie for selfish reasons? If we use lying, or deceit or falsehood in any wise, are we then deceiving ourselves into self-blindness? Could not the small deceits practiced now, grow into larger deceits later in a moment of crisis coming?

The Devil is a roaring lion prowling around seeking whom he can devour.

The Devil is the father of lies. He is out to deceive us all with lies and half-truths.

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Mark 13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming. Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie. That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

1 John 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, and deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The danger lies near our door ….. !

We can be bound by tradition and be blind to truth.
We can be bound by personal prejudices and be blind to truth.
We can be bound by deep rooted biases and be blind to truth.

Get the first hand feeling of being hoodwinked HERE (http://snipurl.com/moontruth1)

Get the truth of the matter Here (http://snipurl.com/moontruth2)

Eurogal

[Zaph]

Rahab was just barely beginning her new relationship with the one true God. Old habits and practices sometimes have a hard time being completely snuffed out. I believe that she did what she thought best with her human reasoning. God honored that. Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

[Zaph]

Eurogal, just when I thought I had said something that offended you (because of the silence) you suprise me a very nice study. The children of God are always studying the Bible to gain new truths and a deeper understanding of old ones. I enjoyed reading what you had to say. :)

[7thwatch]

I have a true story to share with you all. It happened to a a friend of my parents parents or grandparents, I'm not sure which one. This is true . . .

This happened during WW2. Mrs. H--- is hiding a Jew in her house. The SS comes to her door and asks, "Mrs. H----, do you have a Jew in your house."

Now, if you were her, what would you say? What is the right thing to do?

Tommorow I'll post the actual ending of the story . . . until then, lets have your opinions and/or guesses.

[Zaph]

I know the answer!!!! :boing: But I'll be a good boy and wait for 7thwatch's answer.

[7thwatch]

Does anybody care to venture an opinion as to what the Lady in my story should do? I'll give it a little more time to see if we can field some responses.

[me again]

If telling the truth would result in the murder of the Jew, then I would be deceitful to protect the human life. :me:

[7thwatch]

Thank you for your input me again.

Anyone else? It will only take a second of your time . . . just give me your opinion. No one will try to debate you on it.

Tommorow night I'll post the end of the story.

[cdhale]

I would lie

clint

[Eurogal]

Speedreading through so many forums has blocked the clear memory of where in which CyberForum I actually saw the end of your story, 7thWatch. But before I even knew the end of the story by reading it online, I had asked the Lord in prayer what should I do in such a case?

The answer didn't come so swiftly. Only the words "God CAN".

If I were to apply the principle of faith in Him because He can, (whatever),
then I should be able to say to the authorities asking me to tell where I hid the sought for 'innocent' people..... "Go have a look for yourselves. If you find or see them then they are there." I'd let them in my house. I'd be actually forced to let them search because there is no way to resist their will. However, God can make the minds of the inquisitors blind. He CAN send them a dellusion. The innocents being persecuted for their faith in God can be hidden and not found because of God making the minds of the enemy confused.

It is easy for me to say that because of living with "the mind" of my husband. Hundreds of times over the years I have asked him to please hand me something in the room not far from him and he replies it is not there. I explain how of course it is there, and describe the exact spot. He still declares he doesn't see it. Slowly, with much concentration, he actually does eventually see the item. It is worse when I ask for something out of a drawer, or the fridge or from under the sink or in a cupboard. I don't do that anymore :) . I have learned not to ask him for bringing me objects anymore. He just is too occupied with other transcedental thoughts in his philosophical mind to focus on material small objects at the click of a switch. :) :)

[kevingaily]

Originally posted by cdhale
I would lie

clint

I would too, although when I was working in the men's program in NYC We saw judges commute sentences and other such things because God gave them favor with the judge. These guys should've done time, but for some reason the judges were way lenient. But to save a life from destruction who is innocent, I'd be inclined to agree with Clint

[kevingaily]

Originally posted by Zaph
Rahab was just barely beginning her new relationship with the one true God. Old habits and practices sometimes have a hard time being completely snuffed out. I believe that she did what she thought best with her human reasoning. God honored that.

Maybe she had simple childlike faith...the kind Jesus said we should have. Anyway, God did more than wink, He put her in the hall of faith for all to see and made her part of the lineage of the Messiah. Would God have thought better if she hadn't lied and caused the Hebrew spies to be murdered? Would she still be honored as a woman of great faith? These are simply retorical questions, no need to answer. :)

[cdhale]

I agree with you Kevin. God presents Rahab to us as a model of faithfulness. Now if in reality, she was not faithful and learned better after the Israelites conquered Jericho, I think it would be nice for God to explain that. Because the only story we have of her is when she lies.

It is really easy to dismiss her(and others) story when it doesn't fit our theoretical parameters, or explain it away. But the fact is that real life is not lived in theoreticals. It is lived in the here and now with stuff coming from every direction. Sometimes those things collide. When it does, we have to make a decision. Without taking alot of time, go back and read why Rahab lied. What reasons did she give to the Israelites for siding with them. I think that her faith was evident even then.

If you disagree, thats fine. But give a real reason, don't just dismiss her story, or that of the midwives in Egypt. THey are presented in scripture as models of faith. Nowhere does it say "they were faithful, but it would have been better if...."

clint

[7thwatch]

most of you said you would lie. Here is what actually happened:

The Lady simply told the SS "you have the power to search my house. Exercise it if you wish." They told her that would not be neccesary, have a nice day, and they left.

Lieing under any circumstances is wrong. God has promised us that he will prepare a way of escape from every temptation. Lieing is never the only option, as the woman in our story demonstrates.

Abraham once lied to save life and God reproofed him for it. When he went to Egypt he told Pharoh that his beautiful wife was really his sister. He told a half truth to save his life and things did not turn out so well. God did not condemn Rahab because she did not know what she was doing was wrong. Abraham knew. You and I know too. There is no excuse for lying. God will always provide you a way out. The catch is that you must be enough in tune with him to be able to let him show you what that way is.

Peace
7thwatch

[me again]

That's a facinating testimony. Oh, and BTW, there are other people from other forums who have expressed an interest in your topic about the ethics of telling white lies. :me:

[7thwatch]

Originally posted by me again
That's a facinating testimony. Oh, and BTW, there are other people from other forums who have expressed an interest in your topic about the ethics of telling white lies. :me:

my topic????

[cdhale]

I still disagree. Apparently the scripture does, also, as Rahab is still mentioned, lie and all, as a heroine for us to emulate. She is held up as a model of FAITH, not ignorance.

But, I really don't want to argue, as in general, I agree with you. I think lying is not a practice that we should want to get involved with. I think Rahab, the midwives, etc are the exception, not the rule.

clint

[7thwatch]

We are to emulate Rahab's faith, not her lieing. She is a heroine of faith. Her faith was great enough to overcome her ignorace. God overlooked her ignorance because she did not know better. If you know better, he holds you to a higher standard.

Acts 17:30 - "In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent."

[me again]

Yes, I'm referring to your thread. :me::up:

This is a hotly debated issue. It really gets some people in a dander to suggest that a lie might be okay. I've already had two people tell me that they would always tell the truth -- even to a Nazi SS officer which would result in the murderous execution of an innocent Jew. :bulge:

IMO, what we have here is a distinction between the Pharisaical letter of the law vs. God's spirit of the law. A Pharisee is unable to make this distinction. :bulge:

[me again]

Posted by 7thwatch
We are to emulate Rahab's faith, not her lieing. She is a heroine of faith. Her faith was great enough to overcome her ignorace. God overlooked her ignorance because she did not know better.

If you know better, he holds you to a higher standard:Acts 17:30
In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. That's a very good point. I had not thought of that contextual analysis. :think:

[Buzzard]

I don't think rahabs false statement was what Paul was refering to as "Faith"


If the men of Jericho had caught Rahab hiding the spies she and all her house was toast
Maybe Rahabs "Faith" was enough she was willing to put her life at risk by hiding the spies,
even if she at that time "Knew not God"

Is there the posibility,
the family of an expecting mother in egypt;
knowing the orders of Pharoah
"Just did not call the midwives",
until after the child was delivered

Buzz:

[7thwatch]

Originally posted by me again
Yes, I'm referring to your thread. :me::up:



my thread?!?

can you post a link? I'm really lost here.

[me again]

I was thinking that you were the author of this thread. If I am mistaken, then please just ignore the little man behind the curtain (me... again!!!). :me:

I was tempted to start a thread, asking who has the best avitar. I was going to vote for you. :boing:

[7thwatch]

now I understand. Its ok, we all get confused sometimes.

oh, and the temptation you mentioned would be ok to give into IMO :D

[me again]

I won't start that thread because it might hurt the feelings of the people who don't have good avatars. :bulge:

[Little Lamb]

Originally posted by me again
I won't start that thread because it might hurt the feelings of the people who don't have good avatars. :bulge:
Then they'll just have to get better avatars. Go ahead and start it.

Don't you like my avatar? :bash:

[Eurogal]

see me now with this wee sign on brown stick saying.."off topic".
:) :D :) ;):boing:

[Eurogal]

Tell me, am I to preceive that the truth of teachings, coming from the lesson learned by the Old Testament stories, includes accepting acts of deceit as a human tendency which God winks at?

Can it be that God does not attribute to our character as sin against the Holy Spirit, those past instances of O.T. survival examples, if we chose to imitate them in principle which is adapted for our own lives?

I am speaking of, for instance, the cases of Rahab hiding the spies, Joseph dealing with his brethern, 2x Abraham turning his wife into his sister (before E.Pharaoh and Abimilech), Jacob’s mother scheming to get Jacob the birthright blessing, Laban using fraud to get first daughter married to Jacob, Jacob using trickery to get the strong sheep and letting Laban only the weaker ones, the midwives of in-Egypt Hebrew women telling that they came to late to kill the boy babies, the cunning of Samuel getting David anointed without a word to King Saul, David playing the looney before Achisch the king of Gad.

And by the way…. What about our Lord Jesus who often asked questions he already had the answers to? Does such a ploy come under deceitfulness? Is achieving an advantage in the manuvering of people really an acceptable method of employment for social intercourse today ?

Here a list of what I see today even among Christians as questionable but practiced human actions……

Acting in Shrewedness
Setting-someone-up
Being full of Guile
Practicing Chicanery
Using Deceitfulness
Acting in Craftiness
Being Cunning
Acting in Foxiness
Working with Slyness
Using Trickery
Baiting someone
Applying Dupery
Practicing Fraudulence
Put-on someone
Fooling someone
Pretending about something
Being Pretentious

The question will always plague us Christian believers just how many of the above ways (or how far to go in those ways) we are allowed to employ without harboring sin in our hearts?

Eurogal

[Little Lamb]

Originally posted by Eurogal
see me now with this wee sign on brown stick saying.."off topic".
:) :D :) ;):boing:

This smiley comes to mind when you said that. :bump:

You could post something like this:

:bump: off topic. Just a suggestion.

[Irish Traveler]

For some, it seems, what is truth to them, is how they perceive an event. And that is what they will report. Yet I, am involved in causing the event, perhaps, see something what I feel is totally different. Is the other party lying or am I lying? Or does the truth and fact possibly reside somewhere in the midst of it? Just wondering. :(

[Angel]

Not one person has the "truth" I believe it is found someplace between either parties. One person may see it one way while the other may see it another....

The truth is in the middle...

:banana: :banana:

[Eurogal]

....He is the truth.

The closer you are to Jesus as your Christ the more encased in truth you will be.

Truth should not be separately apart, outside of you.

When you are filled with His Spirit you are filled with truth.


Eurogal

[Little Lamb]

Amen, Eurogal! :good:

[saved]

To answer the original question, no it is never right to lie. All liers will have their place in the lake of fire. Rev. A theif can steal your positions, but a lieing tongue can take your name.

1 : to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive
2 : to create a false or misleading impression
transitive senses : to bring about by telling lies <lied his way out of trouble>
synonyms LIE, PREVARICATE, EQUIVOCATE, PALTER, FIB mean to tell an untruth. LIE is the blunt term, imputing dishonesty <lied about where he had been>. PREVARICATE softens the bluntness of LIE by implying quibbling or confusing the issue <during the hearings the witness did his best to prevaricate>. EQUIVOCATE implies using words having more than one sense so as to seem to say one thing but intend another <equivocated endlessly in an attempt to mislead her inquisitors>. PALTER implies making unreliable statements of fact or intention or insincere promises <a swindler paltering with his investors>. FIB applies to a telling of a trivial untruth <fibbed about the price of the new suit>.

To answer the original question, no it is never right to lie. All liers will have their place in the lake of fire. Rev.