Riots force France to look at immigrant problems, policy

[me again]

Here's a condensed shocking article on France's inability to absorb its large Muslim population:France -- Menacing youths smoked cigarettes in doorways Wednesday and hulks of burned cars littered the tough streets of Paris' northeastern suburbs scarred by a week of riots that left residents on edge and sent the government into crisis mode.

In a seventh night of skirmishes, young people threw rocks at police north of Paris -- about a 40-minute drive from the Eiffel Tower.

The unrest -- sparked by the accidental deaths of two teenagers last week -- is frustration over unemployment and police harassment where North Africans live.

Muslim leaders prayed for peace and asked parents to keep teenagers off the streets. Skirmishes broke out after two teens were electrocuted while hiding in a power substation because they believed police were chasing them.

The unrest spread to France's poor suburbs -- fertile terrain for Islamic extremists, drug dealers and racketeers.

The violence, concentrated in neighborhoods with large African and Muslim populations, has highlighted the difficulties many European nations face with immigrant communities feeling cut off from the continent's prosperity.

The violence cast doubt on the success of France's model of seeking to integrate its large immigrant Muslim population, an estimated 5 million, Western Europe's largest. Click here (http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051103/NEWS/511030764/-1/INDEX) for the full story.I am of the opinion that radical Islam is not compatable with any other religion, as is evidenced by the oppressive Islamic regimes that engage in legalized discrimination and persecution against all non-Moslems. Radical Moslems have been called upon to kill Christians and Americans "in the name of God." That's sick. :puke: :nervous:

[Tom]

Yeah, it couldn't happen to a nicer country. I hope the next major terror attack takes place in Paris. France is the scummiest western country on earth.

As Patton said, "I'd rather have a battallion of German's in front of me than a company of French behind me."

Tom

[picard]

Tom: that's polititics. Do you think that if Christ was here He would make the kind of statement you just made? God forbid. The Romans were hated by the Jews as the "scummiest" of the earth. But Christ loved the Romans as much as anyone else.

"We are ambassadors for Christ." 2 Cor.5:20.

Christ's ambassadors know better than making "political" statements. They have nothing to do with the affairs of the governments of this world. They are here to look after the affairs of the kingdom of God. God has interests in this world. That is why He has ambassadors in this world. Anyone who professes the name of Christ should stay away from the politics of the world. God loves all nations including "scummiest" France! He has interests in France just as much as in the U.S. or any other nation on the globe! "God so loved the world."

[picard]

I am of the opinion that radical Islam is not compatable with any other religion, as is evidenced by the oppressive Islamic regimes that engage in legalized discrimination and persecution against all non-Moslems. Radical Moslems have been called upon to kill Christians and Americans "in the name of God." That's sick.
######################

Me Again, in light of your "Calvinistic" views, why should you care at all that radical Islam is not compatible with any other religion? According to what you believe and teach, they are not among the "chosen" and therefore they are the children of the devil and can only do his bidding. You say that they have been called upon to kill Christians and Americans. If there is anyone to be blamed it would have to be God since He is responsible for their being the way they are. They were programmed by God to be damned! Weren't they?

[Tom]

The only thing necessary for evil to triumph, in politics especially, is for good men to stand by and do nothing. You misapply Jesus role as our role model as you do the rest of Scripture which is no surprise.

I would point out scripture which obviously states God does not love all nations but you would ignore it anyway so I won't waste my time.

Tom

[me again]

Me Again, in light of your "Calvinistic" views, why should you care at all that radical Islam is not compatible with any other religion? According to what you believe and teach, they are not among the "chosen" and therefore they are the children of the devil and can only do his bidding. You say that they have been called upon to kill Christians and Americans. If there is anyone to be blamed, it would have to be God since He is responsible for their being the way they are. They were programmed by God to be damned! Weren't they?As a Calvinist, I cannot lay blame to the Lord God for anything that has happened or that will happen. However, I have met many Armenians who say that if Calvinism is true, then they cannot and would not serve God if He truly is the way Calvinism describes Him. I consider it heresy to say that someone would not or could not serve the Calvinistic God because the clay has no right to judge the Maker.

Regarding extremest Islamic beliefs... If the choice is to be killed by them or to kill them, then I would choose to eradicate them. I will protect the right of my family members to live. I have seen a non-Moslem Westerner be beheaded. They took the sword and slowly cut through his neck until his head was completely severed as he screamed in pain. The last thing I heard was the air being discharged from his lungs as his head was 98% severed. I cannot and will not tolerate such extremism that is based solely on religion. If you would like, I will try to find the video for you, but I won't post it in the public forum. I swore that I would never again watch that video, due to how horrific it is. :fuse:

[Tom]

Me Again, in light of your "Calvinistic" views, why should you care at all that radical Islam is not compatible with any other religion? According to what you believe and teach, they are not among the "chosen" and therefore they are the children of the devil and can only do his bidding. You say that they have been called upon to kill Christians and Americans. If there is anyone to be blamed it would have to be God since He is responsible for their being the way they are. They were programmed by God to be damned! Weren't they?

Yet more scripture for you to ignore!


Romans 9:18-20 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you , O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to it's molder, "Why have you made me like this?"

Does that scripture make you angry? You have serious issues with allowing God to be God. He doesn't care what you think is fair, he determines all right and wrong. He gives his mercy to whoever he wants and his judgement to whoever he wants. He isn't obligated to save anyone. The fact is whether you like it or not apart from God's favor a human is about $8 worth of chemicals and water walking around that belongs to God, to do with as he pleases.

Tom

[picard]

Originally Posted by picard
Me Again, in light of your "Calvinistic" views, why should you care at all that radical Islam is not compatible with any other religion? According to what you believe and teach, they are not among the "chosen" and therefore they are the children of the devil and can only do his bidding. You say that they have been called upon to kill Christians and Americans. If there is anyone to be blamed it would have to be God since He is responsible for their being the way they are. They were programmed by God to be damned! Weren't they?
__________________________________________________ _________

Yet more scripture for you to ignore!

Romans 9:18-20 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you , O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to it's molder, "Why have you made me like this?"

Does that scripture make you angry? You have serious issues with allowing God to be God. He doesn't care what you think is fair, he determines all right and wrong. He gives his mercy to whoever he wants and his judgement to whoever he wants. He isn't obligated to save anyone. The fact is whether you like it or not apart from God's favor a human is about $8 worth of chemicals and water walking around that belongs to God, to do with as he pleases.

Tom
################################

Tom, God forbid that any of us should ignore any passage of Scripture and yet the Scriptures are not subject to any private interpretation. 2 Peter 1:20. In order for us to understand Romans 9:18-20 we must let the Bible interpret itself, comparing spiritual things with spiritual things. 1 Corinthians 2:13. If there is one thing that I have learned over the years it is that one must be careful how he reads the Bible especially when it comes to the language used to describe God's ways. The Jews failed miserably in that very department and that is why they could not enter into God's rest. That is why they went astray in their hearts. Hebrews 3:10.

We all are aware of the fact that the Bible says that "God hardened Pharaoh's heart." The Bible also says that "God slew Saul and turned the kingdom over to David." We also read that "God sends strong delusions" to those that have not the love of the truth. The meaning of these passages of Scriptures depends on how well we know God and His ways. The Scriptures teach that to know Him is eternal life.

Yes, in Romans 9:18-20 we read that God "hardens whom He wills." I believe that just as I believe that He hardened Pharaoh's heart! However God Himself has warned us not to read the Bible and interpret His actions according to man's ways of thinking and doing things. He says, "My ways are not your ways and My thoughts are not your thoughts. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8,9.

God's ways of "hardening" a man's heart are totally opposite of what man's ways of doing the same to a fellow human being are. If I want to harden your heart, all I have to do is to call you names, unless you are a true child of God and, like Christ, you would not be offended by it. Speaking of God's children the Scriptures say, "Nothing shall offend them." Unless we are born from above, we wear our nerves on our sleeves. It does not take much to harden a heart that has not been regenerated by the Spirit of God.

But when we read that God "hardens" a man's heart, that He "slays" an impenitent sinner or that He "sends strong delusions," to those who do not have the love of the truth, we are to remember that His ways are not our ways! If God's ways were the same as our ways, then we could read Romans 9:18-20 and safely believe that He thinks as a man and acts like a man, even sinful man for that matter!

But that is not the case. Far from it! Did God "harden" the heart of the Egyptian king to prevent him from accepting the message He gave to Moses for the king to hear? Does God ever compel a man to offend and be lost? Did God strengthen and confirm the king in his obstinacy? Absolutely not. God simply allowed the seeds of unbelief to produce their fruit. God left the king to the inclinations of his own heart. What Pharaoh has done has been done by men and will be done again and again until the close of probation. When a man stifles conviction, when he turns from evidence, he is sowing the seeds of unbelief and will reap as he has sown.

By rejecting the first warning from God, Pharaoh of old sowed the seeds of obstinacy. His history is a fearful illustration of the truth of the words that "whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Galatians 6:7.

God does not blind our eyes or harden our hearts directly. He sends us light to correct our errors, and to lead us in safe paths. It is by the rejection of this light that the eyes are blinded and the heart hardened. Often the process is gradual, and almost imperceptible. When one ray of light is disregarded, there is a partial benumbing of the spiritual perceptions, and the second revealing of light is less discerned. So the darkness increases until it is night in the soul.

This is what happened to Saul. It is written that "God slew him" and yet Saul fell on his sword and died. 1 Chronicles 10:4,14.

The Lord had no other choice but to leave Saul and Pharaoh to reap that which they had sown: the seeds of unbelief. They reaped obstinacy and God had no choice but to abandom them to the malice and malignity of Satan.

This is what happened to the Jewish people and this is what will happen to us if we persistently reject the light that God has caused to shine on our path. "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression. He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves to reap that which they have sown." Great Controversy, pp.35,36.

"God bears with divine patience with the perversity of the wicked. But He declares that He will visit their transgressions with a rod. He will at last permit the destructive agencies of Satan to bear sway to destroy." E.G. White, B.C. Vol.4, p.1171.

Indeed, God's ways are not man's ways!

[Tom]

Picard,

Thank you for taking the time to respond, as you are able, to my questions. God does not need you to apologize for his actions, he is God and he can do as he wishes. Your reply is doubletalk that is on the level of doubletalk we generally hear from catholics.

To be honest, no insult intended, debating these issues with you is like conversing with Ellen White's parrot. Intersting at first then progressively less amusing.

Have a nice day.

Tom

[picard]

All right Tom, then explain to me how God "slew" Saul when we know that it was a case of suicide! 1 Chronicles 10:4,14. That's a fair question, isn't it?

On the hills of Gilboa, as the Philistines were closing in on him, "Saul took a sword and fell on it." 1 Chronicles 10:4. Then in verse 14 we read: "God slew Saul and turned the kingdom over to David."

I'm listening! :)

[Tom]

All right Tom, then explain to me how God "slew" Saul when we know that it was a case of suicide! 1 Chronicles 10:4,14. That's a fair question, isn't it?

On the hills of Gilboa, as the Philistines were closing in on him, "Saul took a sword and fell on it." 1 Chronicles 10:4. Then in verse 14 we read: "God slew Saul and turned the kingdom over to David."

I'm listening! :)


All right Picard, you may be on to a logical thought pattern here. It is a very fair question in fact I like this question as it will prove my point all the more, not that it hasn't been sufficiently proven already.

Are you ready.

God engineered circumstances, sent troubling Spirits to torment him (1 Sam.16:14) and finally backed him into a corner and withdrew all hope from his heart and caused him to fall on his sword. He makes it happen in verse 4 and is taking credit for it in verse 14. A soveriegn act of God.

No different than when Gideon came against Midian (Judges 7:19-25) He caused the enemy to kill themselves as surely as if he had taken a sword and run them through himself. Saul's suicide was brought to be by God just the same.

Tom

[me again]

Wow, awesome explanation Tom!!! :what: You really know the Word!!! God has something very special lined up for you!!! :orange:

Picard, what is your explanation for that scripture? :eek:

[picard]

Quote:
Originally Posted by picard
All right Tom, then explain to me how God "slew" Saul when we know that it was a case of suicide! 1 Chronicles 10:4,14. That's a fair question, isn't it?

On the hills of Gilboa, as the Philistines were closing in on him, "Saul took a sword and fell on it." 1 Chronicles 10:4. Then in verse 14 we read: "God slew Saul and turned the kingdom over to David."

I'm listening!


All right Picard, you may be on to a logical thought pattern here. It is a very fair question in fact I like this question as it will prove my point all the more, not that it hasn't been sufficiently proven already.

Are you ready.

God engineered circumstances, sent troubling Spirits to torment him (1 Sam.16:14) and finally backed him into a corner and withdrew all hope from his heart and caused him to fall on his sword. He makes it happen in verse 4 and is taking credit for it in verse 14. A soveriegn act of God.

No different than when Gideon came against Midian (Judges 7:19-25) He caused the enemy to kill themselves as surely as if he had taken a sword and run them through himself. Saul's suicide was brought to be by God just the same.

Tom
##################################################

The answer to the question as to what the Bible means when saying that the Lord "slew" Saul, when in fact Saul killed himself, provides us with the answer as to what the Bible means when it says that "a distressing spirit from the Lord troubled Saul." The New King James version renders this passage thus:

"But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and a distressing spirit from the Lord troubled him. And Saul's servants said to him, Surely a distressing spirit from God is troubling you." 1 Samuel 16:14,15.

There is no question that God "sent" a distressing spirit to Saul just as the Bible says that He "sends" strong delusions to those who do not have the love of the truth. This is what the Bible says and we must believe it. But the real question is, What does the Bible mean by "a distressing spirit from the Lord?" First, a "distressing spirit" can only be an evil spirit for holy angels are never sent on a mission to distress the children of man, never!

What happened is that the Lord had in many occasions made known His will to Saul through His servant the prophet. However, again and again Saul chose to disregard some aspects of God's commands. The Lord was longsuffering with him as He is with every one of us. But there comes a time when the limit of His forbearance is reached. When that happens God can no longer shield us from the enemy who is constantly seeking access to us that he may bring distress upon us! This is Satan's delight. Satan knows that God will not force His presence and protection where it is no longer wanted!

"We carefully secure our houses with bolts and locks to protect our property and our lives from evil men but we seldom think of the evil angels who are constantly seeking access to us, and against whose attacks we have, in our own strength, no method of defense. If permitted, they can distract our minds, disorder and torment our bodies, destroy our possessions and our lives. Their only delight is in misery and destruction. Fearful is the condition of those who resist the divine claims and yield to Satan's temptations, until God gives them up to the control of evil spirits." Great Controversy, p.589.

This is what happened to Saul, To Pharaoh of old, to the Jewish nation and to all who call light darkness and darkness light. But the wicked one cannot break through the guard which God has stationed about His people.

Saul gradually lost God's protecting care and little by little the evil agencies of Satan gained control over him until they were permitted to bear sway to destroy.

It was the same with the Midians. Yes, it was a judgment brought by God upon them but not directly. They had filled their cup of iniquity and they were left without any protection from the evil angels that night. They fell under Satan's power. And yet the Bible could say that God "slew" them all as it is written that "God slew Saul" when in fact he fell on his own sword!

This is the language of the Bible and it is always consistent.

When we understand God and His ways of dealing with sin and sinners, we see that He destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself.

"Evil shall slay the wicked." Psalm 34:21.

Here is a statement that I believe should arrest our attention:

"Men have reached a point of insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, 'No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience, for the cup of iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work.'" Review and Herald, Vol.4, p.335.

Solemn words but very illuminating!

May the Lord save us all from that day of sheer terror!