Denominations to Share Communion

[me again]

Snip...
United Methodist bishops have approved an agreement to share the sacrament of Communion with Episcopalians and Lutherans, the first step in moving the three denominations toward "full communion."Click here (http://www.religionjournal.com/showarticle.asp?id=2417) to read the full story.

[John Oscar]

All three of those demon-ations have either or are about to allow homosexual's to be ordained ministers.
So at least they have something in common.

[me again]

I don't see any controversy with allowing homosexuals to be ordained as ministers, nor do I see a controversy with allowing homosexuals to be leaders of the Body of Christ. Being a homosexual is a damnable abomination in the sight of God and they are hell-bound and there is nothing controversial about it. :eek:

Case closed. :nuts:

If alledged Christian denominations are ordaining homosexuals, then surely these must be the last days. Even so, come Lord Jesus.

[John Oscar]

Amen Brother!

[Cortese]

The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod does not ordain homosexual pastors nor does it condone homosexual behavior or any sinful behavior for that matter.

The Evangelical Lutheran Church is the more Liberal of the 3 major Lutheran Synods and does seek to ordain homosexual pastors.

I just wanted to clarify this because I currently attend a Lutheran church that is part of the Missouri Synod and asked this very same question of my pastor. The Liberal media likes to lump the Lutherans churches into one basket when in fact their stance on certain social issues are quite different.

[John Oscar]

I grew up ELCA and I know people in the different Lutheran synods, but thank you for that clarification Cortese. I definately don't want to lump them all in the same basket...

Blessings

[Cortese]

I was on a business trip to Portland, OR back in October and attended an ELCA Lutheran Church one Sunday. I really didn't know what stance they took on important social issues but when I did things began to make sense to me. More specifically that there were quite a few males attending the church together as a couple.

I'm not saying that homosexuals shouldn't come to Christ as Christ is for everyone, don't get me wrong. However, if a church does not call sin for what it is, regardless of the social implications, they are just placing their stamp of approval on that sin in my opinion.

I personally feel a little sympathy towards those who are homosexual but want to worship God in a church environment. It has to be difficult to deal with.

I've always wondered if being homosexual is just personal preference or is it something you're born with and cannot change?

[me again]

Snip...
I've always wondered if being homosexual is just personal preference or is it something you're born with and cannot change?IMO, full fledged open homosexuality is demon possession. It is being "perfectly possessed" where the human does not resist the temptations that are given to him by the demons.

I am 100% grateful that I have never been tempted to lust after a man. :doh: :no:

[John Oscar]

Homosexuality used to be termed a mental illness until political correctness entered into the equation.

It is a lifestyle choice, no matter what "science" tells us. It is the end of a sliding into sin outlined in Romans. It is demonic, and it is wrong, and it does not belong in the body of Christ at any level.

If I ever become a senior pastor, I will not tolerate two women or two men, or even an unmarried hetrosexual couple showing outward displays of affection (kissing, hugging, holding hands) in my church. The holiness of the Godhead will be maintained in His house, and I will call sin what it is, purposeful rebellion against the soverign God.

Saying that, Christians should still love homosexuals. We have a tendency to keep them at arms length. I have homosexual aquaintances, but they know where I stand in regards to their lifestyles. I am also close to leading a few of them to Christ with the firm love I've showed them :)

Blessings

[Cortese]

It is being "perfectly possessed" where the human does not resist the temptations that are given to him by the demons.

Would say that anyone who lives in blatant sin, no matter the sin, falls into this category too?

Pastor John, I will sometimes place my arm around my girlfriend during the worship part of the service. Do you feel that by doing this takes away from the focus of the worship? I also will give other people I know a hug as a form of greeting outside the sanctuary in the lobby area. I guess I want to understand why those things would be looked down upon in your church.

[me again]

It is being "perfectly possessed" where the human does not resist the temptations that are given to him by the demons.Would say that anyone who lives in blatant sin, no matter the sin, falls into this category too?If the person has remorse, then no, it is not a "perfect possession" by the demons. But if the person has no remorse for the sin, without fear of consequences or judgement, then yes, that could result in a "perfect possession" by demons. :nervous:

[Cortese]

So would it be a safe assumption that those who are non-believers, that live their lives with no remorse for their actions, are in perfect possession? I would've falled into this category prior to being saved.

[me again]

So would it be a safe assumption that those who are non-believers, that live their lives with no remorse for their actions, are in perfect possession? I would've falled into this category prior to being saved.No, not everyone in this category gets to be demon possessed, IMO.

It's interesting that the bible doesn't talk a lot about demon possession, but nonetheless, it does talk about it. What leads up to demon possession? Why do some people get possessed while other's don't? There are specific reasons for each and every case, but only the Lord knows those reasons.

It's interesting that the crazy demoniac in the tombs was freed by Jesus -- and then he sat down in a straight mind at the feet of Jesus to listen to Him. What led up to his possession? Why him and not others? I don't know.

It's also interesting to note that after Jesus healed a particular fellow, He said to him, "Go... and sin no more... lest something worse come upon you." There appears to be a correlation between sin and disease, at least in this particular instance.

[John Oscar]

I'm talking about more blatent forms- prolonged cuddling, long kisses, hanging all over each other, ect.

My thoughts for you, or for anyone else in this situation (for people under my spiritual covering/authority):

If this girlfriend is one you are at least beginning to think about planning to marry, I may be a little more lenient on it. However, if I see a new girl every other week, I will ask you to refrain from public displays of affection until you are serious about courting and eventually marrying this women. I don't want to give an inch when it comes to the possiblity of people falling into sexual sin by giving silent approval by not speaking out of what I think is inappropriate levels of affection... 99% of the time, it would be done in private. Only if there was open and blatent disobedience would I make it a public matter....

I'm getting a little more stringent about this with the loose morals that our society has, and I don't want to give the enemy any opportunity for slander...

Blessings

[Cortese]

We most certainly do not hang all over each other nor even kiss at church. In fact, she's the first girlfriend I've ever brought to church with me. I agree with you that there's a time and place for prolonged actions of affection and church certainly isn't it.

[John Oscar]

I want to make sure you know that I'm not questioning your charactor.
I was just using your example to explain my positions

Love and blessings

[st_michael]

Homosexuality used to be termed a mental illness until political correctness entered into the equation.

It is a lifestyle choice, no matter what "science" tells us. It is the end of a sliding into sin outlined in Romans. It is demonic, and it is wrong, and it does not belong in the body of Christ at any level.

If I ever become a senior pastor, I will not tolerate two women or two men, or even an unmarried hetrosexual couple showing outward displays of affection (kissing, hugging, holding hands) in my church. The holiness of the Godhead will be maintained in His house, and I will call sin what it is, purposeful rebellion against the soverign God.

Saying that, Christians should still love homosexuals. We have a tendency to keep them at arms length. I have homosexual aquaintances, but they know where I stand in regards to their lifestyles. I am also close to leading a few of them to Christ with the firm love I've showed them..

I'm getting a little more stringent about this with the loose morals that our society has, and I don't want to give the enemy any opportunity for slander...

John, although I agree with you that Homosexuality is a lifestyle choice and a sin... why would you keep a sinner away from the one place he can be healed... the Church of God... I believe our salvation is a process and once we come to accept the Lord as our God and savior we begin to turn from our sinful ways... Salvation is a long journey and sin is slowly pushed out of our life... I have not met a Christian without some type of sin still in their life... I cannot judge one sin more sinful than some other sin, although the Bible suggests their is levels of sin, but that is God's job not mine...

John, would you prevent this open homosexual not to attend a Bible study at your church? If you would allow him to attend your Bible study, than what is the difference between Bible Study and Sunday Worship?

Bible Study and Mass are two different forms in the Catholic Church... but we still allow the homosexual both... He may not be allowed to partake in the Eucharist, but he is allowed to attend Mass... If he/she acts inappropriately in Mass than it will be up to the Priest to talk with them and decide if they are to keep attending... They would be banned not because they are homosexuals but because of the disturbance they cause in Mass...

This disturbance is what I believe you are against when a Homosexual would openly show sexual affections towards another of the same sex...Yes, I believe you should talk with them and ask them to stop...if they refuse than yes, as the Pastor of the Church you have the authority to ask them not to come to Sunday Service... Not because of their homosexuality but because of the disturbance they continually do at service...

Only my two bits worth… Peace!

P.S. I hold my wifes hand during Sunday Mass, I kiss my mother, kids and brother during the sign of peace exchange... I see no harm in acts of love and affection... however, I do believe acts of sex should not be allowed... and yes... as a pastor you have the obligation to guide your flock into correct public behavior... behavior that should be at ones best when talking with the Lord of Lords, King of Kings. Our God and Savior Jesus Christ...

In conclusion, I agree with you... :D

[John Oscar]

I would not allow any behavior which could be construed as an de facto endorsement of sin. Period.

Could an open homosexual attend my church. Yes, they could come to the services, bible studies, ect. However, they would not be allowed into membership until they repented and ceased their homosexual conduct. The same rule would be enforced for hetrosexuals living in sin, or single people who lead a promiscious lifestyle. All of these groups would be expected to act in accordance with certain standards of holy living according to the word of God and the direction of the Holy Spirit upon myself and my other elders. I also will not directly target them in sermons, but I also won't hold back in calling sin, sin.

Married hetrosexual couples can hold hands, hug, kiss, ect in church as long as it doesn't detract from the worship of God, or cause others to stumble. Again, a dose of common sense goes a long way here...

Blessings

[Cortese]

I want to make sure you know that I'm not questioning your charactor.
I was just using your example to explain my positions

Love and blessings

No problem Pastor, there no offense taken. I just wanted to understand your position.

[st_michael]

I would not allow any behavior which could be construed as an de facto endorsement of sin. Period.

Could an open homosexual attend my church. Yes, they could come to the services, bible studies, ect. However, they would not be allowed into membership until they repented and ceased their homosexual conduct. The same rule would be enforced for hetrosexuals living in sin, or single people who lead a promiscious lifestyle. All of these groups would be expected to act in accordance with certain standards of holy living according to the word of God and the direction of the Holy Spirit upon myself and my other elders. I also will not directly target them in sermons, but I also won't hold back in calling sin, sin.

Married hetrosexual couples can hold hands, hug, kiss, ect in church as long as it doesn't detract from the worship of God, or cause others to stumble. Again, a dose of common sense goes a long way here...

Blessings
Not allowing "membership until they repented and ceased their homosexual conduct" is not correct... do you cease all of your sinful conduct after you repent? As I said before, I have not met one Christian that has ceased conduct of all of their sins... and yet they are welcomed into the Body of Christ, as all sinners are. Could I safely say you have ceased from all of your sinful conducts and I have finally met the one Christian that has achieved this? :D

It is not for us to decide the period or manner in which they are cleansed of their sin in which they are victim of... I have many times talked to people that are engaged in sinful acts... I welcome them into Church, talk to them about God and affirm that we are all sinners. I further explain that the ultimate outcome of believing in God and moving towards his God saving Grace is the desire to please and conform to God's will... This desire is the door in which the Lord Jesus will work his Grace. God will change our behavior and move us away from sin and towards him, the giver of Life.

I say let God do his work... teach correct conduct! Use the authority given you to govern your local church to the best of your abilities. Pray, and love all people. When a person decides to attend your local Church, he is obliged to listen to the teachings of the Church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as an outsider (Matthew 18:17). This is in hopes that they will come to their senses (Luke 15:17) and desire to come back (Luke 15:18), as the lost son did!

It should be made clear that the person being asked to leave is because of the refusal to listen to the teachings of the Church (Matthew 18:17) and not because of the initial sin that forced the church to confront the person.

Peace!

[John Oscar]

Eph 5:4-7
5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person-such a man is an idolater-has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7 Therefore do not be partners with them.

Welcoming a person into the church as a member and not confronting their sin is the worse thing you can do, both for the person and for the whole church. If they refuse to repent of the sin of adultery and fornication, whether it be hetro or homosexual, they cannot be welcomed in the church.

To allow it will bring shame upon the whole church. Ask Cardinal Law (who should be thrown out of leadership in the RCC on his ear) how allowing this sin affects the witness of a church.

Having a soft touch on sin is the devils tool to bring down the church as well as the individuals in it. Sin should not be tolerated in our lives, nor in the church.

Blessings

[st_michael]

Having a soft touch on sin is the devils tool to bring down the church as well as the individuals in it. Sin should not be tolerated in our lives, nor in the church

This was the stance of the Jewish Leadership at the time of Jesus... however; Jesus had a different approach yet still disliked sin. He loved the sinner... forgave them and told them to sin no more and welcomed them into the Church... what happened when they could not live up to this goal in which most of the entire New Testament was written to confront… they would repent again and pushed on to sin no more…

Praise be to God who has the power and love to forgive us Sinners! Even when we keep sinning!

[John Oscar]

We can still love the sinner, but we do not sanction their sin through the giving of the right hand of fellowship in giving them membership in the church. They can attend as long as they like, and would prefer them to attend as I believe the Word and the Holy Spirit will lead them into the truth.

Let me ask you this- would you serve a unrepenant homosexual communion?

Would you baptize them?

I'm not talking about former homosexuals, I'm talking about active homosexuals...

[st_michael]

Let me ask you this- would you serve a unrepenant homosexual communion?NO!

Would you baptize them?NO!

I would still welcome them into the Church and pray with them and count them as members of the Church like you said:
They can attend as long as they like, and would prefer them to attend as I believe the Word and the Holy Spirit will lead them into the truth. Like I said we agree... However, communion and baptism are Sacraments...from Latin sacramentum, oath of allegiance, obligation
from sacrare to consecrate.

So when a person undergoes these sacraments they are giving an oath and obligation to consecrate their lives to God and not to themselves... Hence, why st Paul felt the need to warned the corinthians:whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. - (1 Corinthians 11:27-29)
To many people (IMHO) place baptism and communion as membership acts... they are not taught correctly, and do not understand the sacraments are a personal oath you make to God to consecrate your life to him...just like dipping your fingers in holy water as you enter a Catholic Church... you are reminded yourself and re-consecrating yourself with the oath made at baptism... it is a beautiful thing when fully understood... yet it can lead to judgment on oneself if one does it without discerning the holiness of the oath...

[John Oscar]

I think we are just having a semantics discussion here. By membership, I mean they are voting (in some denominations), full members of the church, and are welcome to participate in all sacraments.

You are right, we agree in theory, if not in wording :)

[Tom]

So would it be a safe assumption that those who are non-believers, that live their lives with no remorse for their actions, are in perfect possession?


The correct theolgical term for this is non-elect.

Only the Holy Spirit of God can convict of sin and bring about repentance.
He does not always choose to do so.

Tom