The True Israel

[dedication]

Galatians (Galatian people were Gentiles)
3.26
For you (Gentile Christians) are all the children of God
by faith in Christ Jesus.
3.27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
3.28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
3.29
And if you be Christ's, then are you Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise

[dedication]

WHO IS THE ISRAEL OF THE LAST DAYS?

Upon the understanding of this term, ISRAEL, rests the whole understanding of endtime events and the deliverance of God's people. Who is the True Israel, is a question we must settle before we can fully understand the true meaning of the last day prophecies.


So let's let the BIBLE tell us who ISRAEL is:

The first time we hear the word Israel in the scriptures
was when God changed the name of Abraham's grandson, Jacob.

“Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, [the supplanter] but Israel: for as a prince you have power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.” Genesis 32:28.

Israel, at this point was not a nation BUT ONE MAN. His new name represented his spiritual victory over sin, his sin as a supplanter and deceiver was pardoned. Through wrestling in prayer Jacob's persevering faith prevailed. He held fast the angel until he obtained the blessing he desired, and the assurance of the pardon of his sins. His name was then changed from Jacob, the supplanter, to Israel, which signifies a prince of God.


Jacob’s family moved to Egypt where they were forced into slavery by the Egyptians. Then God told Pharaoh through Moses, “Israel is my son, even my firstborn. . .Let my son go.” Exodus 4:22,23
Israel is now expanded to include Jacob’s descendants. Israel applies to the people of the victorious man, Jacob.

Now Christians look to the New Testament to explain the Old Testament (not the other way around as so many do when it comes to prophecy)

Look at how the New Testament parallels the Old!! :idea:

The Gospel tell us JESUS, the Son of God, the Word of God, came to this world as a human being!
While yet an infant, Herod threatened His life, and Jesus’ family flees to Egypt.

Now see this:

Hosea 11:1 “When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.”
Matthew 2:15 “Out of Egypt have I called my son.”
Notice that Matthew is quoting from Hosea!
Hosea originally referred to the nation of Israel being led out of Egypt,
but now Matthew shows that verse being fulfilled in Jesus Christ!

Other texts reveal the same principle:

In Exodus we read,
God called Israel “my firstborn” Exodus 4:22.
Yet Paul said Jesus is “the firstborn” Col. 1:15.

The clearest example is where God called Israel “the seed of Abraham.” Isaiah 41:8.

Yet Paul later referring to that very text, wrote that Abraham’s seed does not refer to many but to one, which is Christ. Gal.3:16

Way back in Genesis, when God first introduced His Covenant, that truth was established:
The Messiah is the seed that will crush the serpents head. Gen. 3:15
Christ is the victorious ONE, MESSIAH THE PRINCE, THE TRUE ISRAEL.

Jacob, was "Israel" -- one man. Yet, through him, his descendants were also "Israel" of the flesh.
So CHRIST, IS THE ISRAEL! Yet, through HIM, we become the true Israel of faith.

Right after Paul’s statement in Galatians chapter 3 about Jesus being “the seed,” he then told his Gentile converts “And if you be Christ’s, then are you Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal, 3:29.

:bow: So in the New Testament, Israel applies to Jesus Christ, first.
Israel also applies to all those who are born in Christ. Spiritual Israel.

[dedication]

Paul makes it plain that there are now TWO Israels.

1. The Israel of the flesh (natural Israel)
2. The Israel of God (spiritual Israel)

1. There are the Jews of the flesh (natural Jews)
2. There are the Jews of the spirit (spiritual Jews)

There is only ONE ROAD TO HEAVEN
and that is by accepting Jesus Christ "TODAY" and being a Israelite, BORN AGAIN IN CHRIST, the true Israel!

Your first birth is NOT the title, it matters not if you are Jew or Gentile. TODAY, is the day of salvation, not some second chance in the future.
Are we born again IN CHRIST, a partakers of the promises?



---------------

Romans 2:17,25,26,28,29

"Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God...being instructed out of the law...having the form of knowledge and truth in the law....you make your boast in the law, but you dishonor God by breaking the law.....
For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision."
What is this saying? Here is the natural, literal Jew, their "mark" of being the chosen Israel is considered to be circumcision. But Paul says-- if you don't live up to what it means to be God's chosen, you become uncircumcised-- you are no longer a member of the "victorious" Israel.

"And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you...FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHO IS ONE OUTWARDLY; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly and circumcision is of the heart, in the Spirit."

Who are the literal "uncircumcised" ? it is the uncircumcised Gentile, he is not a literal Jew. Yet, Paul says, if he fulfills the law, HE IS THE REAL JEW!

Whether or not someone is a TRUE JEW has nothing to do with fleshly things, but depends upon the person's faith and spiritual character.

To the Gentile Philippeans Paul confirms this by saying:
"For we are the circumcision which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh." (Phil. 3:3)

Ephesians 2:11-21

"Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh--who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh -- were at one time without Christ, aliens from the commonwealth of Israel."

Did you notice what it said?
Once-- before they knew God, Gentiles were aliens to the commonwealth of Israel, they were outside the fold of Israel-- without God.

"But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far of are brought near by the blood of Christ." For He Himself is our peace, who has made both ONE, and has broken down the middle wall of separation."

Wow! the Gentiles are made ONE WITH ISRAEL-- there is no more separating wall!

Why do modern theologians rebuild that wall? Jesus broke it down!

"now you [Gentile Christians] are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God".

Gentiles are Israelite citizens-- fellow citizens -- members of the household of God! And it continues.....

Ephesians 3:6 "That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel."

Once again Paul presents the same conclusion:
:bow: For Israel, is a name that applies to Jesus Christ, first.
Thus Israel also applies to all those who are born in Christ. Spiritual Israel, and heirs of the promises.

[me again]

Thanks for the good read. It is facinating. :idea:

[dedication]

Thanks, MeAgain!
--------------------------

There is so much more--

Here's Romans 9 and Paul's great concern and grief over natural Israel.


9:1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit,
9:2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart.
Earlier in the book of Romans, Paul wrote out the steps of salvation, and emphasied the absolute necessity turning to Christ for salvation.

Now he turns his attention, with a heavy heart, to his own country men; the Jewish race, who have largely rejected Christ, the only hope of salvation.

With a strong threefold affirmation he asserts his continuing love for his fellow Jews. They cause him great sorrow and unceasing anguish of heart as he thinks of their unique privileges, which SHOULD have made them the most responsive people to the coming of their Messiah. Yet, they would not believe.


9:3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh,
9:4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises;

A Key to understanding this passage:
These are the Israelites OF THE FLESH, the natural, genetic descendants of Jacob (whose name was changed to Israel). Paul calls them his brothers, and those of his own race, his countrymen.

Paul sees these Israelites OF THE FLESH, (that is natural descendants,) who have rejected Christ, as lost, not having salvation. We know this because of his anquish of heart. Paul, like Moses, loves them enough that "were it possible" he would give up his own salvation, IF it could be accredited to them and gain them salvation.


The Jews were God's chosen people, through whom He had purposed to bless the entire world. GOD'S PLAN was that they would accept the Messiah and be the light to the Gentiles-- that was the PLAN. This had been promised them through the prophets. But their rejection was also foretold.


9:5 Of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.


We are often given the idea that when Paul was converted to Christ, that he turned his back on Judiasm. But that cannot be true. Paul here explores TRUE Judaism in Christ.
From the Jewish "fathers" can be traced the human ancestry of Christ, Who is God over all those "fathers"!
Yet, HE, God, became a Jew according to the flesh-- that is, HIS genealogy can be traced back to Abraham.
What a special privilege that God (they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Matthew 1:23) became a Jew, and walked among them. How could they reject HIM.

Did the promises fail?

9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect.

The promises all centered upon the coming REDEEMER, Jesus Christ, and Christ HAD COME! God kept HIS part of the covenant, Christ came to ratify that covenant with His own blood! He came to His own, but His own received Him not.

Next Paul begins his discussion (which covers three chapters) on who true the ISRAEL is-- to whom the promises will be fulfilled.
In these chapters he clearly points out that there is an Israel according to the flesh, and an Israel according to the election of grace. The Israel of the flesh is "cut off", and Israel of faith is saved.

9:6 For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,

Not all LITERAL ISRAEL, is part of TRUE ISRAEL.
Remember the KEY Paul gave us in verse 3 and 4; Israelites according to the flesh were Israelites by birth, they were of his race, his countrymen.
Now Paul is saying just because one is an Israelite according to the flesh doesn't mean they are Israelites of the promises.

9:7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called”.
9:8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
9:9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

Some will say, "Oh, but that's talking about Ishmael and Isaac, of course Ishmael isn't of Israel.

However, In Galatians 4:22-31, Paul reveals that Ishmael represents unbelieving JEWS, while Isaac represents both Jews and Gentiles who have faith!

In Galatians 4.23-29 we read
But he (Ishmeal) was born of the bondwoman after the flesh; but (Isaac) of the freewoman was by promise.
Now we, brethren, (Paul is speaking to the Galatians) as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Interestingly enough Ishmeal with his mother Hagar represents Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. (Gal. 4:25)
But Isaac, represents the children of promise : Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. (Gal. 4:26)

Paul makes it very clear, here in Romans 9:8 That those who are the children of the flesh who have rejected Christ, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

Israel of the flesh, he has clearly identified as "his countrymen" which cause him great sorrow and anquish because of their rejection of Christ.

9:27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant will be saved.
9:28 For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness, because the LORD will make a short work upon the earth.”
9:29 And as Isaiah said before: “Unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we would have become like Sodom, and we would have been made like Gomorrah.

The sad emphases here is to show that the majority of Israelites are not on the right side. Though Abraham's descendants be as the sand of the sea, yet only a remnant will be saved.

Out of Jerusalem will come a remnant, and out of Mount Zion a band of survivors" Isa 37:31

Obviously all NATURAL ISRAEL will not be saved.
When Paul speaks of "all Israel" being saved later in chapter 11, he is refering to spiritual Israel (the true tree of the Israel of faith, with its' Jewish and Gentile branches)

Yes, out of Jerusalem came that remnant of natural Jews who embraced the gospel, and became "true Israelites indeed", they carried the gospel to the Gentiles. (Paul, Peter, John, and many more New Testament Christians).

The Christian church was almost 100% Jewish in it's beginning, and the gospel DID flow out of Jerusalem to the world. God's purposes were fulfilled. From that time on true Israel is the ISRAEL OF FAITH.

[me again]

Dedication,

You are obviously well versed in the scriptures. With that in mind and from a scriptural perspective --> can you explain the re-creation of the nation of Israel in 1948??? Was it by divine providence or by happenstance???

:idea:

[dedication]

Dedication,

You are obviously well versed in the scriptures. With that in mind and from a scriptural perspective --> can you explain the re-creation of the nation of Israel in 1948??? Was it by divine providence or by happenstance???

:idea:

Neither!

It was planned and orchestrated by the "dragon", through the "beast" (the real Biblical anti-christ power which already reigned 1260 years, was wounded and this is all part of his coming back), and the "beast's" helpers (European nations and USA) for the final great and overwhelming deception of "Babylonian" (the kingdom of the counterfeit people of "God") --for the final powerplay of this "Babylonian" kingdom of Rev. 18, which sets up it's tabernacles between the seas and the glorious mountain, (Dan. 11:45) but comes to it's end.

The Bible tells us that there will be a great deception in the last days,
Matthew 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."
This deception will arise from the midst of professing Christianity, and it will be loudly trumpeted by teachers and prophets and false miracle workers from WITHIN Christianity.
2 Peter 2.1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Isn't this whole emphases that a rebuilt earthly temple with red heifers, and sacrificial altars will be "the temple of God" and can be "defiled" by stopping those sacrifies, DENYING THE VERY LORD THAT BOUGHT THEM?

If we ask ourselves, "how would the followers of Christ, ever be deceived by "false christs" pretending to be Jesus?"
Christians won't be deceived through some evil, obviously hostile to Christianity "antichrist" claiming to be the Messiah.
Nor could they be deceived if they are all "departed" and aren't around to be deceived.
Yet in Paul's writings he so often stresses the (let no one deceive you by any means) to Christians.

Now, study the scriptures and you will find out that Satan wants to be God. He wants the type of worship due ONLY to God, and he will seek after those who are the only beings qualified to offer true spiritual worship, namely the worshipers of God. (see Isaiah 14)

This is an important POINT in understanding the endtime events.

How can he get Christians worshipping him instead of Christ?

He takes the promises which are obviously transferred from NATURAL Israel of the flesh, who have rejected the covenant of Christ in Daniel 9; the covenant which was confirmed to the Israel of Faith, and transfers those promises back to a nation that has rejected the covenant and has basically accepted spiritualistic Kabbulism, and insists these must be the receivers of those promises, and thus draws people into looking for an EARTHLY KINGDOM, rather than a heavenly.
He uses as the "spiritual leader" of Christianity a man following "spirit apparations" personating "mary".
After stirring up a lot of trouble to make it appear it's all Biblical, Satan, though the two beasts of Rev. 13, will make it appear "Christianity" is winning, and finally will appear to that "earthly jerusalem" as the returning Messiah, to supposedly save them from all the trouble, and to set up the 1000 years of a supposedly earthly kingdom. He has the power to personate Christ, (when God permits) and bring with him his fallen angels personating "departed" believers. He is the "eighth head" of the red beast upon which Babylon rides. The eighth head is the beast itself. (see Rev. 17) He has built and shaped his "Babylon" through his seven heads, starting with ancient Babylon through to the modern times, and in the end the whole world will accept him as the returning Christ (all those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of Life)

Rev. 13:4 says the WHOLE WORLD will worship the dragon and the beast!

Isaiah 14.12-14
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

I realize the above post, in trying to give an overall picture, isn't the clearest and leaves out a lot of connecting thoughts, and I'll try to show more fully the reasons for my statements in the days ahead. :shrug:

[Quasar]

Dedication -

You said, among a great many things:

>>>Interestingly enough Ishmeal with his mother Hagar represents Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. (Gal. 4:25)
But Isaac, represents the children of promise : Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. (Gal. 4:26)<<<

Ishmael represents every Islamic nation under the Arabic flags in the world today, plus others, that are Israel's arch enemies, who worship another god, called Allah.

The Israel of today are those whom God prophecied [Many times and places],
that He will cause to return to their own land. Zech.10:9 and Jer.30:1-17.

The common denominator pertaining to the Church in Paul's time, was that all who were saved from hearing the Gospel, whether Jew [Of Israel first] then the Gentile, belong to the Church. They are one through belief in Christ and one Spirit.

However the Israel God chose and raised up into a nation, then scattered into their diaspora for 1,848 years - restoring them as a nation once again in 1948, as He prophecied He would, are yet to be redeemed. First they must go through 'Jacob's Trouble,' the seven years of tribulation. When the see their Messiah whom they pierced, then [The remnant of] - all Israel will be saved. Zech.12:10.

The Church does not become the so called 'true church of Israel.' That is the heresy that led to the Crusades in the Dark ages.

The Church are all who come to believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior, regardless of language, or nation, including any converted Israelis. Meanwhile, Israel, as a nation rejected their Messiah, out of which came the very reason for the Gentile Church being established. Rom.9:24-27.

By the same token, because God has punished Israel, by no means does that equate into the idea He has replaced them with the Church. Rom.11:1 and 11. Paul's agony and anguish over Israel was because they had rejected their Messiah, Jesus - and it was his obsession to bring them to salvation.

Jesus said, "I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd." Jn.10:16.

He is telling His disciples, 'this sheep pen' is Israel, and the 'other sheep' is His Church. When Jesus returns in Zech.12:10 at the end of the tribulation, 'all Israel will be saved.' [The remnant of what is then left of them] Rom.11:26. It is at that time Jesus will establish His Millennial kingdom
on earth and when Israel and His Church will be 'one flock with one shepherd.'

In another place, Jesus said, "But many who are first [Israel] will be last [Because they go through the tribulation] and many who are last [The Church] will be first" ]Because they will be raptured in 1 Thes.4:14-18, before the tribulation begins, 2 Thes.2:3-8].

Paul never taught that through the grafting in of believers meant the Church replaced Israel as God's chosen people. But rather, are all added into the many whom He has chosen as His own people. Rom.11:17.

In Christ!

Quasar

[Tom]

Well said Quasar. The opposing view is replacement theology and it is rubbish.

Tom

[dedication]

from Quasar:

Dedication -
You said, among a great many things:

>>>Interestingly enough Ishmeal with his mother Hagar represents Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. (Gal. 4:25)
But Isaac, represents the children of promise : Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. (Gal. 4:26)<<<
Ishmael represents every Islamic nation under the Arabic flags in the world today, plus others, that are Israel's arch enemies, who worship another god, called Allah.

You are arguing against plain New Testament Teachings, not against me. For Paul uses Ishmael as an allegory, and tells us exactly WHAT HE MEANT.

Galatians 4.22
For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
4.23
But he who was of the bondwoman (Ishmael) was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman (Isaac) was by promise.
4.24
Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Hagar.
4.25
For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
4.26
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Then Paul declares to his Gentile audience (the Galatians)

4.28
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Next Paul admonishes them to "stand fast in the freedom which is in Christ"

"For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision (sign one is a fleshly Jew) availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision (the sign one is born a gentile); but faith which worketh by love.



That discussion followed Paul's affirmation to the Galatian Gentiles:

In Galatians
3.26
For you (Gentile Christians) are all the children of God
by faith in Christ Jesus.
3.27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
3.28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
3.29
And if you be Christ's, then are you Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise

[Tom]

Yes, we are the spiritual seed of Abraham and we do have "the promise." However, to understand God's relationship with the nation of Israel one must understand the covenant that God entered into with Abraham. It is an everlasting and unbreakable covenant. Israel and the Hebrew people still hold a very special place in the Kingdom of God. His covenant with them is an eternal one. The church has promises from God but we did not replace Israel. Israel is an entirely different matter and God has a different deal with them than he does with us.

Tom

[dedication]

No it's not "replacement" theology.

No Jew needs to be replaced or excluded from the promises of God.
Christ has ONE FOLD, (not in the future) but now, and that is HIS FOLD of faithful.

Yes, that fold is ISRAEL, and Paul makes it plain what "Isreal" means.
Christ doesn't say "other folds have I", He doesn't say I'm going to make another fold, NO-- He says, other sheep have I, them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

There is only one FOLD and that is the FOLD OF CHRIST THE TRUE SHEPHERD, Christ is the TRUE ISRAEL and all who are IN HIM BY FAITH are the true Israelites.

The faithful Abraham looked for a heavenly inheritance, not an earthly.

Hebr. 11.16
But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
11.17
By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son.
11.18
Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

And remember WHO that "seed" is:

Galatians 3.16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Jesus is that seed-- the ISRAEL,
and those in Him are the Israelites of promises.

We look for a heavenly Jerusalem, not an earthly.
The earthly will bring nothing but bondage, pain and deception.

[dedication]

What is the CHURCH of Christ built upon?

Is it a "completely different" program?
No!

Go back to our reading of Ephesians 2,


Wherefore remember, that you being in time past Gentiles in the flesh...without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise...now in Christ Jesus you who sometimes were far off are made near by the blood of Christ... who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of partition between us;....that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross...Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

The "CHURCH" is built on the apostles and prophets.


The new covenant--
Christians everywhere say they are "under the new covenant". Where do they find that in scripture? The New covenant is made WITH ISRAEL, no where will one find it being made with anyone else BUT ISRAEL.

Surely they can't be serious when the say the NEW COVENANT is yet future. The book of Hebrews is all about the new covenant and was written originally for the HEBREWS in the days of the apostles, pointing them away from their temple to the sanctuary in heaven. The author of Hebrews tells his audience that the old covenant was obsolete. That New Covenant came into being THEN, and it's for all spiritual Israel.

The everlasting covenant never was just for the Jews, the everlasting covenant is for the salvation of mankind. The "seed" was promised in Genesis 3:15. It's not about real estate in the middle east. The inheritance is far greater than that! It was through Abraham that the everlasting covenant was given-- the seed -- CHRIST OUR SAVIOR.

[dedication]

In what way does this popular futuristic interpretation show that God considers Israel "special"?

The futuristic interpretation says God is going to severely punish the last generation of Jews for seven years, for rejecting Christ. (As if they haven't suffered enough already! The terrible things done to them just prior to 1948 to force the establishment of an Israelie state in the Middle East, is more terrible than words can describe--I believe another power is orchestrating all this) But now, the preachers say that God is going to severely punish Israel above all other people, again, until Israel cry "uncle" and all of them accept Christ. Then do they inherit the land?

Not really according to what I understand the teaching is-- for then Christ supposedly returns, and some have told me "rules them with a rod of iron". He supposedly returns "with the church" who apparently all have their glorified bodies, and they rule over an Israel that is still in their mortal state.

How is this showing that "God has a special place" for Israel? It sounds more like He would be treating them as second class citizens.

Yes, God does love the Jewish people! And He offers them everything, on the same scale and in the same way that He offers salvation to everyone-- yes, salvation through Him, not second class citizenship. There is no Greek or Jew, all have been made ONE IN CHRIST.


The futurist doctrine opens wide the door for spiritualistic deception on a grand scale. And I believe that is why Paul uses such strong language when he writes:

2 Thess 2
"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,... Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (which day? the day of the gathering together unto him) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

[Quasar]

Hi Dedication -

You said:

>>>No it's not "replacement" theology.

No Jew needs to be replaced or excluded from the promises of God.
Christ has ONE FOLD, (not in the future) but now, and that is HIS FOLD of faithful.

Yes, that fold is ISRAEL, and Paul makes it plain what "Isreal" means.
Christ doesn't say "other folds have I", He doesn't say I'm going to make another fold, NO-- He says, other sheep have I, them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

There is only one FOLD and that is the FOLD OF CHRIST THE TRUE SHEPHERD, Christ is the TRUE ISRAEL and all who are IN HIM BY FAITH are the true Israelites.

The faithful Abraham looked for a heavenly inheritance, not an earthly.<<<

So what happens to Israel [The nation of Jews] who have rejected Jesus as their Messiah? The very same thing all Gentiles will suffer, who have not accepted Jesus as Lord. They will all go through the tribulation. Jeremiah called it 'Jacob's Trouble,' in Jer.30:7. Daniel prophecied about the final week of his 70 weeks of years, in 9:27, that the antichrist will make a covenant with Israel, break it in the middle of the week, and force them to stop their sacrificial system, go into their temple himself claiming that he is God.

The above is Israel! They are one sheep pen as Jesus stated in Jn.10:16. His other sheep pen is His Church of which He is the Head. Col.1:18. The Church is NOT THE SEED OF ABRAHAM! Jesus Christ is! Gal.3:16. Through Christ, we have been grafted into the natural branches of Israel! That means, all who receive Jesus as Lord and Savior, become God's chosen, along with Israel, and heirs with them to His promises and covenants to Abraham.

The Church IS NOT ISRAEL - AND ISRAEL IS NOT THE CHURCH! Jesus said that His two sheep pens will become ONE FLOCK WITH ONE SHEPHERD! Jn.10:16. That cannot happen until Israel recognizes their Messiah, confess and receive Him! This will not take place until the end of Jacob's Trouble, Zech.12:10. For the entire wrap-up, read the entire chapter of Zech.14.

At that time, it could just as well be said, that all Israel will be added to the Church! See, Acts 2:41. It doesn't matter - we will all be one flock under the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, Jesus Christ - the one shepherd of both!

>>>Not really according to what I understand the teaching is-- for then Christ supposedly returns, and some have told me "rules them with a rod of iron". He supposedly returns "with the church" who apparently all have their glorified bodies, and they rule over an Israel that is still in their mortal state.

How is this showing that "God has a special place" for Israel? It sounds more like He would be treating them as second class citizens.<<<

When Jesus returns in His second advent to the earth [Zech.14:45], all Israel will be saved [Only a remnant then, Rom.11:26]. After the first resurrection takes place, all who participate in it will become priests of God and Christ. Rev.20:4-6. Therefore, Israel will then be helping their Messiah rule with a 'rod of iron,' for 1,000 years. The Church will be put in charge of many things and share Jesus happiness. Mt.25:21 and 23.

Who was it that God chose as a people for Himself? Israel, of course! The people He brought out of bondage in Egypt and gave the Promised Land to! "...and you will be my people." Lev.26:12; "...the people of His inheritance." Dt.4:20 and 32:9 and many, many more such passages.

You are laboring under false pretenses if you believe God has rejected Israel. Paul said, "God did not reject His people, whom He foreknew...So too, there is a remnant chosen by grace." Rom.11:2 and 8.

>>>Wherefore remember, that you being in time past Gentiles in the flesh...without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise...now in Christ Jesus you who sometimes were far off are made near by the blood of Christ... who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of partition between us;....that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross...Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;<<<

What Paul means here - is that believers in Christ, has made both Israel and the Church one as God's chosen! Israel has wandered off - which made the Gentile Church possible to begin with. But Israel will return and recognize their Messiah finally, at the end of the tribulation. Then we will finally all be one through one Spirit. Rom.12:12-13.

In Christ!

Quasar

[me again]

Just thinking outloud on the following theory:

It is strange that all of the unbelieving Jews (who reject Jesus as the Messiah) who have lived for the last 2000 years are damned, but the last generation of Jews will be alledgedly be saved in their entirety during (or after???) the 7 year tribulation???

Why would God allow millions of Jews who lived in the past to be damned, while allowing the last generation of Jews to be saved, simply because they're alive at the Second Coming of Christ??? Why the alledged unmitigated favor towards the last generation of Jews, but not towards the Jews who died over the last 2000 years???

What? God will save an entire generation of Jews in the last days??? "They" will suddenly believe because they have seen Jesus??? < scratches head > If they suddenly see Jesus, then it will be His Second Coming -- and isn't it too late to believe at that time??? Because, after all, at the Second Coming of Christ, everyone will believe!!! Even the damned!!! But you're saying that the Jews will be saved at that time???

:idea:

[dedication]

[The nation of Jews]
They are one sheep pen as Jesus stated in Jn.10:16. His other sheep pen is His Church of which He is the Head. Col.1:18. The Church is NOT THE SEED OF ABRAHAM! Jesus Christ is! Gal.3:16. Through Christ, we have been grafted into the natural branches of Israel! That means, all who receive Jesus as Lord and Savior, become God's chosen, along with Israel, and heirs with them to His promises and covenants to Abraham.

The Church IS NOT ISRAEL - AND ISRAEL IS NOT THE CHURCH!

You keep proving my point, but then depart widely from it.

Of course CHRIST'S "CHURCH" is the "true seed of Abraham" and IS ISRAEL.

Galatians 3.29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The "church" was a "remnant" of literal Israel, and the Gentiles were added to it.

Where does Jesus say HE HAS TWO SHEEP PENS!
Nowhere!

Let's look at the "sheep" parable a little closer.

Speaking of the TRUE SHEPHERD Jesus Christ-- "the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.... the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.... I am the door of the sheep.....I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.....And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. "
The "other sheep" are people who have not yet heard the gospel.
Christ doesn't have "another sheep pen", He has sheep wandering around out there searching for truth, which He must bring into HIS fold.

But notice again--

Matthew says: Matt. 12.17-20
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall show judgment to the Gentiles....A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory....And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.

Matthew is quoting Isaiah 42:1-3 and Isaiah wrote:
"Israel...my servant" Isaiah 41:8

Isn't it obvious that ISRAEL is Christ, FIRST AND FOREMOST.
Those in the fold of "ISRAEL" must enter through the door, WHICH IS JESUS CHRIST. Anyone who does not enter that door is NOT of His fold.

__________________

In fact, Jesus declares this quite emphatically!

Remember-- Jesus said "MY SHEEP KNOW MY VOICE".

What does He say of the literal national leaders of the Jews?

John 8:19 "Ye neither know me, nor my Father":

The Jews reply: "We be Abraham's seed" John 8:32 "Abraham is our father" John 8:39

Jesus denied their claim, even though he acknowledged their physical connection to Abraham.
"I know you are Abraham's descendents, but you are planning to kill Me...If you were Abraham's children, you would do what Abraham did, but now you seek to kill me, Abraham never did that, you are doing what YOUR father did."

The Jews counter: "We have one Father, even God."

Then Jesus speak hard truth: "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God;....you are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and has nothing to do with the thruth.....He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God." (see John 8)

Jesus was talking to people who claimed to be the keepers of God's flock!

Jesus said they were not really Abraham's children at all.

Jesus makes it plain where the TRUE FOLD is!
HE IS THE DOOR to the fold, and all the sheep who enter that door are in the FOLD.
HE IS THE TRUE ISRAEL
Those in HIM are part of ISRAEL.






Jesus said that His two sheep pens will become ONE FLOCK WITH ONE SHEPHERD! Jn.10:16. That cannot happen until Israel recognizes their Messiah, confess and receive Him!

Ephesians 2 plainly tells us how and when Christ made THEM ONE.

Go back to our reading of Ephesians 2,


Wherefore remember, that you being in time past Gentiles in the flesh...without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise...now in Christ Jesus you who sometimes were far off are made near by the blood of Christ... who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of partition between us;....that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross...Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;



When Jesus returns in His second advent to the earth all Israel will be saved [Only a remnant then, Rom.11:26].


That's correct-- ALL WHO have entered through the door WHICH IS CHRIST, WHO is the TRUE ISRAEL, will be saved. And yes, there will be literal Jews in that number.

There is only ONE SECOND COMING, not two second comings.
Those who miss that COMING-- miss salvation.

TODAY IS THE DAY OF SALVATION-- Today harden not your hearts -- To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.--Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest we lose out (see Heb. 3 and 4)

At the second coming the redeemed go to heaven with Christ.

Christ WILL NOT establish a kingdom over present day nations for 1000 years.
1 Cor. 15:50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;
John 18.36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:

When Christ's kingdom is set up IT WILL NEVER BE DESTROYED (Dan. 9:44,45) It shall stand forever. Which is quite contrary to popular interpretation which thinks it will be destroyed after the 1000 years, when they say, all the nations, who have enjoyed Christ's reign for 1000 years will revolt against 'his iron rule" and as the sands of the sea march against Christ, so God has to destroy Christ's kingdom and set up a new kingdom.

No, Christ's kingdom is set up after the 1000 years and lasts FOREVER.

The resurrection of the just occurs at the second coming. It is for all the saved, whether they be Jews or Gentiles or Chiness or Africans. Those in the first resurrection will not face the second death.

The world will be desolate for a thousand years, while God's people are in heaven-- priests and kings in the HEAVENLY SANCTUARY which the New Testament says is the REAL sanctuary. God will not inflict the second death until all understand that His verdict is just-- thus the righteous are given thrones and are involved in "judgment"-- "the jury's time out to deliberate"

The ruling with a rod of iron--at the second coming-- (to smite and rule with a rod of iron, is explained in scripture-- “ thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel” Ps. 2:9; Rev. 2:26)

Those not prepared with clean white linen of righteousness covering them, will be slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: (see Rev. 19:8,21)

The wicked live not again till the 1000 years are over.

After the 1000 years the second resurrection occurs-- those in the second resurrection face the second death. "Blessed are they that have part in the FIRST RESURRECTION!"
The second resurrection -- are the wicked which rise from their graves with the same animosity against Christ and His law, as when they died. It will be clear to all what their true motives are for as they see Christ upon His throne they seek to impeach and overthrow Him.

Then God will wipe sin out of existance forever, cleanse the earth with fire, and a new heaven and a new earth created, and THE glorious kingdom established which lasts forever.

[me again]

Dedication,

I believe your interpretation of scriptures in the above quote, with the exception of one thing: I find it inconceivable that the devil would "round up" the Jews in these last days, so that the nation of Israel is re-created. It seems more like divine providence, instead of demonic providence. Albeit, I also find it inconceivable that the entire last-generation of Jews will be saved, although the Lord does say in Deuteronomy that "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will curse whom I will curse." Thus, if the Lord wants to save an entire generation of unbelieving Jews (after they believe), then it is His perogitive to make them believe by signs and wonders. :shrug:

[dedication]

Well, Me Again, you asked me what I thought-- and that's what I think about the matter. :nervous:

Though I wouldn't call it "demonic providence", I'd call it "demonic manipulation".
Here's just some reasons--

1. I find this type of nonsense on the web:
"{quote} I have always said that if the deepest and profoundest hope symbolizing redemption is the re-building of the Jewish Temple . . . then it is obvious that those mosques [al-Haram al-Sharif and al-Aqsa] will have, one way or another, to disappear one of these days . {End Quote}

The Christian world is sorely deluded as to what constitutes the profoundest hope of redemption, if a Jewish temple is that hope!

2. The Papacy has long had dreams of a Jewish Temple for his own purposes.

Hitler, who was a catholic, and his contemporaries had their attitudes formed by catholic teaching. His book "Mein Kampf" had considerable help from a Jesuit priest, Bernard Staempfle. Hitler was very interested in the Jesuit way of doing things.

The part played by cardinal Pacelli, later Pope Pius 12th, is well analysed in the book "Hitler’s Pope" by John Cornwell. Pacelli made a compact/concordat with Hitler, and systematically undermined the powerful Catholic Centre Party so it could not oppose Hitler, and left the world dumfounded because he refused to speak publicly against Hitler.

3. It was the Hitler's persecution of the Jews that helped force the issue of a Jewish state.

4. Surrounding countries like England refused to allow fleeing Jews to immigrate to them, this also forced the issue of a Jewish state.

5. The Jewish state was established by some pretty terrible massacres of the people living there.

-----------

Going back to Ignatius Loyola, the founder of the Jesuits. He came on the scene when the reformation was saying the great apostasy that the Apostle Paul had predicted of the Man of Sin sitting in the Temple of God was being fulfilled by the Papal Dynasty.

So one of the Jesuits, a man named Francisco Ribera (1537-1591) wrote an opposing view. He wrote a lengthy commentary on the Book of Revelation. The main premise of his commentary was that:

(1) Antichrist was one man in the future, not a dynasty working over a long period of time.
(2) Antichrist would be an atheist or infidel, not a religious pretender.
(3) Antichrist was not yet present but would be revealed 7 years before the end of time.
(4) He would sit in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem and make a covenant with the Jews-- etc. etc.
(5) He would call himself God ---

But protestants weren't really buying it-- at least not right away.
In order to make it seem like this "prophecy" was true and make Christians forget about the Papacy being anti-christ, they had to somehow get Jews back to Palestine.

Zionism was invented. But the Jews weren't really that interested in going back to Jerusalem, they were quite comfortable in the countries they were living in. Hitler and WW II changed all that. In 1948, the State of Israel was declared and the survivors of the Holocaust had no where to go but to Palestine.

And now the most accepted interpretation is ----- :rolleyes:

Anyway--

Behind all the complications and factions, wars and desolations-- and working through everyone's hopes, fears and ambitions, is the "desolating" prince of darkness who is working all this out for his own grand deception of appearing as "christ".

So-- yes, I see it as "demonic manipulation". :shrug:

[Quasar]

Hi Me Again -

You said:

>>>Just thinking outloud on the following theory:

It is strange that all of the unbelieving Jews (who reject Jesus as the Messiah) who have lived for the last 2000 years are damned, but the last generation of Jews will be alledgedly be saved in their entirety during (or after???) the 7 year tribulation???<<<

The Word of God states, "Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's only begotten Son." Jn.3:18.

Out of all the Jews of Israel [Including Judah] over the past 2,000 years, there have been thousands converted to Christianity. Even though they are in the minority. During the course of the 6/7 years of WW2, God permitted 6,000,000 Jews to be exterminated. Of those, there were undoubtedly some who were Christian - but Hitler still saw them as Jews and had them killed anyway, because of his anti-semitism.

Do you think there is any difference in what God will permit, between the holocaust and the coming 7 years of tribulation in connection with how many more of the Jews will be killed without knowing their Messiah?

Put the shoe on the other foot: if Israel had not been disobedient to God, then it would be the Gentiles in the spot they are in today, as a Messiah would not have been necessary. The task would have been left up to Israel to convert the Gentiles as the 144,000 will do during the tribulation, where they save millions. Unfortunately, most of those Gentiles will have to pay for it with their lives.

>>>Why would God allow millions of Jews who lived in the past to be damned, while allowing the last generation of Jews to be saved, simply because they're alive at the Second Coming of Christ??? Why the alledged unmitigated favor towards the last generation of Jews, but not towards the Jews who died over the last 2000 years???<<<

According to the Scriptures, what God has said is revealed to us in the following: "I ask then: Did God reject His people? By no means!....God did not reject His people whom He foreknew. Don't you know what the Scriptures say in the passage about Elijah - how he appealed to God against Israel: 'Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me?'

And what was God's answer to him? 'I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.' So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace." Rom.11:1-5.

>>>What? God will save an entire generation of Jews in the last days??? "They" will suddenly believe because they have seen Jesus??? < scratches head > If they suddenly see Jesus, then it will be His Second Coming -- and isn't it too late to believe at that time??? Because, after all, at the Second Coming of Christ, everyone will believe!!! Even the damned!!! But you're saying that the Jews will be saved at that time???<<<

As you know, the Jews of Israel do not believe Jesus Christ is their Messiah and those who still believe there is a God [There are a great many now who don't], worship Him through what they are able to, through Judaism. When the tribulation comes [Jacob's Trouble - Jer.30:7], and Jesus returns to save Israel, and to end the battle of Armageddon [Zech.14:1-5], the Scriptures state the following: "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a Spirit of grace and supplecation. They will look on me whom they have pierced, and they will mourn for Him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for Him as one grieves for a firstborn son." Zech.12:10.

In Christ!

Quasar

[Quasar]

Hi Dedication - [Part 1.]

You said:

>>>You keep proving my point, but then depart widely from it.

Of course CHRIST'S "CHURCH" is the "true seed of Abraham" and IS ISRAEL.<<<

No, my friend - I do not keep proving your point! There are some aspects of agreement in our discussion. However, I am not the one who departs from your belief system - it is the Word of God that does!

Jesus is the only 'seed' of Abraham. Gal.3:16. What you are attempting to make the Scriptures say, is that the Church of Christ makes all of us 'seeds' of Abraham. And therefore the Church is Israel, which is like saying Gentiles have become Jews!

What Paul is saying in Gal.3:29, that through THE SEED of Abraham, JESUS CHRIST, whether Jew or Greek, through belief all are baptized into Christ which then consists of all being one in Him through ONE SPIRIT - and the ONE BODY, HIS CHURCH! Not Israel! Through Jesus Christ, His Church become descendants, heirs according to the promise.

"And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs of the promise." Gal.3:29. NASB We are made descendants of Abraham through belief in Christ, which is a grafting into the natural branches of Israel - through the Spirit of God. Abraham is the father of Israel, of which came the forebears of Jesus Christ, who is also of Israel, making Him the 'seed' of Abraham. When we receive Jesus as Lord, that does not make us Jewish, as He is, any more than it makes the Church, Israel. We remain the Gentiles we always were - unless we happened to be a Jewish convert. Nor does it make Jewish converts to Christianity, Gentiles.

With your insistance that the Church is Israel, then who is the Israel that is going to be saved at the end of the tribulation? Are you saying Zecheriah is prophecying about the Church in Chapters 12/14? That the Church is going to have to not only go through the tribulation, but be saved again? [The Church was not a part of any of the OT scenario].

Who is it that Paul is talking about when he said all Israel will be saved? The same Israel he writes about in Rom.10:1-4 and 11:7-10. It is most certainly not the Church he is having so much anxiety over! He stated we are [The Church] all sons of God! Gal.3:26.

>>>The "church" was a "remnant" of literal Israel, and the Gentiles were added to it.

Where does Jesus say HE HAS TWO SHEEP PENS!
Nowhere!

Let's look at the "sheep" parable a little closer.

Speaking of the TRUE SHEPHERD Jesus Christ
-- "the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.... the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.... I am the door of the sheep.....I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.....And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. "
The "other sheep" are people who have not yet heard the gospel.
Christ doesn't have "another sheep pen", He has sheep wandering around out there searching for truth, which He must bring into HIS fold.<<<

Of course the first believers were all the Jews of Israel as that was the primary mission and ministry of Jesus in His first advent. The Church was not founded until Pentecost, when there were both Jew and Gentile alike present. Acts 2:5-13.

As stated above, Jesus primary ministry was to His people, Israel - not to the Gentiles, who He commissiond His apostle Paul to do. Your obsession that Jesus was referring to only one sheep pen/fold is total nonsense. If they didn't belong to Israel, whom He meant , when He said, 'this pen/fold,' what then does it matter if the word, 'pen/fold' is used or not, when it is obvious there is another one He said He must bring with Him also - that will become one flock with one shepherd! That means, one flock, both Israel and His Church WHO BELIEVE IN HIM. It does not say this one flock all become Israel!

Of course the other sheep are those who hear the Gospel and believe in Jesus. They make up His Church, from every nation and language, which make up the other group Jesus is the head of! Col.1:18. And these are those who belong to another pen/flock/group - call it whatever you like - but it most certainly is an organized flock, far greater in size than Israel!

You err by alluding to Jesus as being the one God is calling His servant, Israel, in Isa.41:8. The servant in that passage is Jacob, whom God changed His name to Israel. Mt.12:17-20 is referenced to Isa.42:1-4, which is about Jesus.

There are a number of people God called His servant, such as Moses, Ex.14:31; Job, Job 1:8; David, Ps.89:3; the king of Babylon [Nebuchadnezzar], Jer.25:9; Plus many, many others.

>>>Isn't it obvious that ISRAEL is Christ, FIRST AND FOREMOST.
Those in the fold of "ISRAEL" must enter through the door, WHICH IS JESUS CHRIST. Anyone who does not enter that door is NOT of His fold.<<<

Though it seems so to you, that Israel is Christ, is ludicrous. The term Christ, is Greek for Messiah. John the Baptist said this: "The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, 'Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.'" Jn.1:29. And what was Jesus origin? Sent from heaven by the Father. Jn.1:1-2, 17:5 and 21. Not from Israel! Jesus is from His Father in heaven and is the Savior of the World, not just Israel.

Might I suggest you consider discussing this issue with some well known converted Jews. Zola Levitt, Moishe Rosen, CEO of Jews for Jesus, David Brinkner, President of Jews for Jesus. Also, a very good book on the subject is, "Jews Gentiles & The Church,' by David L. Larson. The last of three copyrights was in 1995. I believe you can obtain a copy through Jews for Jesus, who, like Zola Levitt, have their own Web Sites.

>>>Ephesians 2 plainly tells us how and when Christ made THEM ONE.

Go back to our reading of Ephesians 2,


Wherefore remember, that you being in time past Gentiles in the flesh...without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise...now in Christ Jesus you who sometimes were far off are made near by the blood of Christ... who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of partition between us;....that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross...Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;<<<

Jesus has made both the Jew and the Gentile one - through belief in Him and belonging to the one body, HIS CHURCH, through one Spirit. Rom.12:12-13. You're twisting Scripture making it bend until it is almost broken by inference Jesus has made all who believe in Him - into Israel! That is completely non-Scriptural!

>>>That's correct-- ALL WHO have entered through the door WHICH IS CHRIST, WHO is the TRUE ISRAEL, will be saved. And yes, there will be literal Jews in that number.<<<

In Rom.11:26, Paul is specifically referring to Israel, who are all unbelieving Jews! "And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: The deliverer will come from Zion; He will turn Godlessness away from Jacob [Israel]. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

Which has nothing to do with all the saved who belong to the Church and have been raptured nearly seven years previously, when Jesus comes for His Church who meet Him in the clouds of the sky! 1 Thes.4:14-18. Which will take place just before the antichrist is revealed and when the seven year tribulation begins. 2 Thes.2:3-8. Which will fulfill Dan.9:27, about the 70th and final week of his prophecy.

The Church is symbolically seen being called up into heaven by the voice that sounds like a trumpet in Rev.4:1-2, before the tribulation begins, in complete harmony with 1 Thes:4:14-18 and 2 Thes;2:3-8. The Church is now in heaven with Jesus and is not seen again until the wedding feast in heaven. Rev.19:7-8. Following that, the Church is seen returning with Jesus, in His armies from heaven, in His second advent to the earth! Rev.19:14, Jude 14 and Zech.14:4-5! That is what the 'Second Coming' means - to the earth. The rapture is not called a second coming, but rather 'His glorious appearing!' Titus 2:13 as an example of a number of other passages.

>>>There is only ONE SECOND COMING, not two second comings.
Those who miss that COMING-- miss salvation.<<<

Already answered above. There will indeed only be one second coming of Jesus Christ to the earth! Zech.14:4-5, Jude 14 and Rev.19:11-16.

>>>TODAY IS THE DAY OF SALVATION-- Today harden not your hearts -- To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.--Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest we lose out (see Heb. 3 and 4)<<<

That day of rest happens to be the Millennial kingdom of Jesus Christ here on earth. "...With the Lord one day is as a thousand years and a thousand years are like a day." 2 Pet.3:8. "There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God. For anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from His. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their [Israel's] example of disobedience." Heb.4:9-11. See also Isa.11:1-16 for the description of Jesus Millennial reign here on earth for 1,000 years.

To be continued in Part 2.

Quasar

[dedication]

I suggest you focus on Zech.14

O.K let's look at Zech and see how it is interpreted through the NT
The Old Testament tends to lump prophecies all together-- Christ’s first coming, Christ’s second coming, as well as the final showdown after the 1000 years. The Old Testament also, puts these things into a setting of “what might have been” at various points had Israel of that day, accepted God’s covenant. We must interpret OT prophecies by the NT, not the other way around.

Zech 14.1-2
Behold the day of the Lord is coming...
For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

The New Testament describes the final battle as being between two great cities:
* Babylon, that great city is called the MOTHER of Harlots. Rev. 17:5
* Jerusalem, that great heavenly city, is called the MOTHER of the children of promise.Gal. 4:26,28

(Rev.3:11-12) "Behold I come quickly" hold fast that which thou hast, that no man take your crown. He that overcomes will I write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem , which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Prior to the 1000 years the nations gather against God's people and seek to exterminate God's people.

In Rev. 12:17 we see the devil, the dragon, goes out with great wrath and makes war with the last generation of the “woman” (God’s true church) who keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus. (This can’t be literal Israel, for they do not have the testimony or the faith of Jesus)

He works through his agents as we see in Revelation chapter 13.

"The beast (which all protestants used to recognize as the papal system) utters haughty and blasphemous words...it was allowed to make war on the saints (defined in Rev. 14:12 as those who keep God’s commandments and have the faith of Jesus ) and to conquer them, this beast is given authority over every tribe and people.....
then the second beast arises (an entirely new world power which arises from the earth which originally helped the true church of God [Rev. 12:16, 13:11]) and causes the inhabitants of the earth to worship the first beast and causes those who would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

The rape of women-- women represent churches-- This beast power will seduce and defile the pure doctrines of every church.

It will seem like the counterfeit worship system will succeed-- the city representing "spiritual Israel" will be taken over by the false worship system-- God’s true followers will be in exile, not even being allowed to buy or sell. But some will remain faithful.
Rev. 14:12 “Here is the patience of the saints, here are they that keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus.”


Zech 14.3
Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Rev. 17:13 "These will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings"

Rev. 19
"The Faithful and True rides forth in righteousness...with the armies of heaven...from his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations...the beast was captured and thrown into the fire...the rest were killed by the sword of the rider on the horse....

[Quasar]

Part 2. to Dedication -

>>>At the second coming the redeemed go to heaven with Christ.<<<

That has already been addressed above. Give me a single passage of Scripture to support that allegation!

>>>Christ WILL NOT establish a kingdom over present day nations for 1000 years.
1 Cor. 15:50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;
John 18.36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:<<<

The Scriptures make it clear that He will! After His 1,000 year reign here on earth is concluded, Satan will be freed and go decieve the nations again. Rev.20:7. Bringing those whom he deceives with him by the millions against Jerusalem and God's people. God will destroy them all in the same manner He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.

Following that, the second resurrection takes place of all the wicked and Godless who will face the great white throne judgement. When that is finished, the present heavens and earth will pass away and God will create an all new heaven and earth. Rev.21:1. The new Jerusalem will come down from heaven and the eternal kingdom will begin.

There is nothing in the Scriptures that infer there is any break in the transition from the reign of Jesus in His 1,000 year reign here on earth and into the eternal kingdom with the new heaven and earth whatsoever. He is seen in the eternal kingdom with the Father in Rev.21:22-23. And is therefore obviously an eternal reign from the time His earthly kingdom begins - into infinity - forever - in the same manner all of us are who belong to His Church. 1 Thes.4:17.

>>>The ruling with a rod of iron--at the second coming-- (to smite and rule with a rod of iron, is explained in scripture-- “ thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel” Ps. 2:9; Rev. 2:26)<<<

When Jesus returns at His 2nd coming to the earth, He is coming with His Church in His armies from heaven - who will fight against the antichrist, the false prophet and their armies. Jesus and His armies will harvest the earth of them - with the blood as high as the bridles on the horses - for 200 miles! Rev.14:14-20. They will be defeated - by Jesus rod of iron - and love and peace will reign for 1,000 years - until Satan is freed from the Abyss. That is what the prophecy of Ps.2:9 is about.

Rev.2:26 states the following: "To him who overcomes and does my will until the end, I will give authority over the nations." Vs.27 repeats the prophecy of Ps.2:9. A case and point of the clear indication of the Millennial reign of Jesus here on earth.

>>>The resurrection of the just occurs at the second coming. It is for all the saved, whether they be Jews or Gentiles or Chiness or Africans. Those in the first resurrection will not face the second death.<<<

The first resurrection is only for those who were saved out of the tribulation. Rev.20:4. The Church was raptured and all believers returned with Him in His armies from heaven, in Rev.19:14. Of all nations and languages.

>>>The world will be desolate for a thousand years, while God's people are in heaven-- priests and kings in the HEAVENLY SANCTUARY which the New Testament says is the REAL sanctuary. God will not inflict the second death until all understand that His verdict is just-- thus the righteous are given thrones and are involved in "judgment"-- "the jury's time out to deliberate"<<<

The above is completely non-Scriptural and cannot be supported by Scripture anywhere in the Bible. The facts about Jesus Millennial reign here on earth has been fully documented above. The earth will never be 'desolate for 1,000 years,' according to the Scriptures. God's timetable for the 'leasehold' He has allowed mankind to have on this earth continues under His full control, precisely as He has taught us from His Holy Word, the Bible.

From the second resurrection in Rev.20:5, all are the wicked and Godless who are raised to face the great white throne judgement. All whose names are not found written in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire. It seems obvious, there won't be anyone whose name is written in the book of life, or they would have either particfipatede in the rapture of the Church or in the first resurrection of the millions who will be saved during the tribulation.

In addition to that, all those who participate in the first resurrection will be priests of God and of Christ for 1,000 years, while Satan is imprisoned in the Abtss for 1,000 years. This takes place right here on the earth. Not in heaven. The Church is not among those who are in the first resurrection - because they are all who were saved out of the tribulation.

In Christ!

Quasar

[dedication]

Now the description moves forward to the end of the 1000.…
Rev. 20:8 tells us the battle of Gog and Magog happens AFTER the 1000 years.

14.4
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
14.5
And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah

The time has come for the final showdown at the end of the 1000 years.
Isaiah, in a parallel passage explains that prior to this:
The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: (Is. 14:7)
Now, Satan is released (Rev. 20:3) And Isaiah fills in the details:

Hades from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirs up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it has raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. Isaiah 14.9
Rev. 20: says the dead lived not again till the 1000 years were finished.
Now WHO gave life to the those dead after the 1000 years? It is Christ, when He comes to this earth for the third time, at the end of the 1000 years.


Christ descends upon the Mount of Olives from which He ascended. He is bringing the NEW JERUSALEM with Him! (Rev. 3:12)


The New Jerusalem is MUCH larger than OLD Jerusalem. Before it settles on this earth, the whole area where the old city once stood, and far beyond it, is flattened and prepared for the descent of the GREAT CITY. Those raised in the second resurrection which takes place at the end of the 1000 years, will flee from the sight of it.

14:5b and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Rev. 21:2-5
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. ...See I am MAKING all things NEW.

The New Jerusalem in which Christ prepared mansions for His followers, and where they lived for 1000 years, will come out of heaven down to this earth. Also all the saved, who have live there during those 1000 years, will come with Christ.

14.6
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
14.7
But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
We know from Isaiah 13.9 that at the second coming “the day of the Lord to lay the land desolate: and destroy the sinners thereof out of it,” left the earth desolate during the 1000 years, but
something happened to the sun and the moon as well-- for “the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.” (Isaiah 13:10)

We also know that the LIGHT of the New Jerusalem is Christ Himself, and He shall make everything continuous day, not day and night. (Rev. 21:23)

Yet the light from the city is somehow veiled at this point (for the very brightness of Christ is death to the wicked,) thus the brightness is veiled, allowing for the last great deception. But it won’t be veiled for long.

14.8
And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

The river of Life flows from God’s throne. (Rev. 22:1)
It is the life from Christ that gives life to the resurrected peoples outside the city. Yet Satan claims to be the prince who is the rightful owner of the world and the life giver. He assures them he had the power that brought them out of their graves.

Isaiah 14 shows Satan in direct command of all the kings of the earth who were raised from their graves (14:9). The nations see him as weak but once again he sets forth his challenge-- "I will raise my throne above the stars of God, I will sit on the mount of assembly on the heights of Zaphon, I will ascend to the tops of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High. (14:13,14)
Revelation 20 tells us he rallies the raised nations from the four corners of the earth and they march on the HOLY CITY.

The final fulfilment of the battle of "Gog and Magog" of Ezekial is about to take place.

Rev. 20:7-10 "Satan will deceive the nations.. Gog and Magog, in order to gather them for battle; they are as numerous as the sands of the sea. They march up over the breadth of the earth and surround the beloved city where the saints are."

And fire comes down from heaven and consumes them...

Isaiah portrays this same ending--
But first the kings of the world realize who their leader really was.

Isaiah 14:16 "Those who see you will stare at you and ponder over you; Is this the man who made the earth tremble who shook kingdoms, who made the world like a desert and overthrew its cities and would not let it's prisoners go?"
For thousands of years this rebellious angel has palmed off falsehood for truth. But the time has now come when the rebellion is to be finally defeated, and the history and character of Satan disclosed. In his last great effort to dethrone Christ, destroy his people, and take possession of the city of God, the arch-deceiver has been fully unmasked. Those who have united with him see the total failure of his cause

Revelation 20:11-15 portrays this “unmasking“ as every soul that has ever lived stands before the great white throne--
First the books are opened and all will see that God's judgment as to who was saved and who was lost, was just.
Then the final second death occurs and sin is forever wiped out.



14.9
And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
14.12
And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
14.13
And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

The whole wicked world stand arraigned at the bar of God, before the great white throne (in Rev. 20) on the charge of high treason against the government of Heaven. They have none to plead their cause; Christ’s ministry as High Priest ended just prior to the second coming, they are without excuse; and the sentence of eternal death is pronounced against them.
The wicked see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them.
Ezekiel 28:13-19
"You were the signet of perfection,
You were in Eden...
You were placed as an anointed cherub...
You were blameless...until iniquity was found in you.
You were filled with violence
You were cast out as a profane thing from the mountain of God...
Your heart was proud...
I cast you to the ground and exposed you before kings......
I brought fire from within you, it consumed you
You turned to ashes on the earth
All who know you are appalled at you
You have come to a dreadful end and shall be no more forever...."

Yes, fire comes down from heaven to consume them---the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Rev. 20:14
Then "death and hell are cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death..."
(21:4,5) "death will be no more for the first things have passed away...see I am making all things new."


Zechariah 14:16-21 must be placed in the framework of the NEW TESTAMENT, not left in the framework of historical Jerusalem. Since Christ died ONCE AND FOR ALL, He is the “Holiness to the Lord” not the pots and sacrifices of an earthly sanctuary.

“all the nations”

Rev. 21:24 Says of the New Jerusalem come down from heaven “the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.”

Those who refused to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, received the plagues and the punishment and are no more. Sin is gone forever.

[dedication]

I have already addressed the issues of the SECOND COMING prior to the 1000 years on another thread--
http://www.theologyreview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1587&page=3

[dedication]

Zechariah 12

Again we MUST look at these verses through the eyes of the New Testament, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. This chapter is filled with references to all aspects of Christ’s dealings-- from His first coming to the final destruction at the end of the 1000 years.

The words “in that day” are repeated over and over--
In what day will the following happen?
13.1
In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
When was that fountain opened? Jesus in John 4 declares He is that Living Water!
Christ, Who is the fountain opened for sin and uncleanness, in which all may wash their robes of character and remove the stains of sin….came to Israel, walking the streets of Jerusalem, Judea, and Galilee, declaring that HIS KINGDOM is at hand. The kingdom of Grace!

Mark 1:15 “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”

That was the day God through Jesus Christ “ pour[ed] upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications:“

John 1.14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

12.1
The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, says the LORD, which stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him.
Zechariah here points back to creation.
Compare this with Paul’s writing:

Thess. 1.9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who has abolished death, and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Again we see that it is at the time of Christ’s FIRST COMING that the fountain of grace was opened , which was predetermined before the world began.


12.2
Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
12.3
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
12.4
In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
Now this is a favorite passage for the futurist interpreters. But does the New Testament anywhere say that the greatest sin that will cause the final destruction of people is a literal battle against Jerusalem?

Or-- does the New Testament use this passage in a symbolic manner.
The “cup of trembling” is described in Isaiah 51:17 and 22 as the “cup of God’s fury” or wrath.
Where in the New Testament does it speak of the cup of God’s wrath being poured out?

Revelation 14:9-10
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Revelation 16.19
And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
The New Testament describes the final battle as being between two great cities:
* Babylon, that great city is called the MOTHER of Harlots. Rev. 17:5
* Jerusalem, that great heavenly city, is called the MOTHER of the children of promise.Gal. 4:26,28

The name on the forehead tells us which KINGDOM, is represented. The force against God has the name of that "great city" Babylon, upon the forehead.
The people of God have “the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem , which cometh down out of heaven from my God:” Rev. 3:12 written upon their foreheads.

In Rev. 12:17 we see the devil goes out with great wrath and makes war with the last generation of the “woman” (God’s true church) who keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus. (This can’t be literal Israel, for they do not have the testimony or the faith of Jesus)

He works through his agents as we see in Revelation chapter 13.
"The beast (which all protestants used to recognize as the papal system) utters haughty and blasphemous words...it was allowed to make war on the saints (defined in Rev. 14:12 as those who keep God’s commandments and have the faith of Jesus ) and to conquer them, this beast is given authority over every tribe and people.....
then the second beast arises (an entirely new world power which arises from the earth which originally helped the true church of God [Rev. 12:16, 13:11]) and causes the inhabitants of the earth to worship the first beast and causes those who would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.




12.5
And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
12.6
In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
12.9
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

In our explanation of Zech 14 we already covered the final battle WHICH TAKES PLACE after the 1000 years according to Revelation 20. Zech 14 told how Jesus feet would create a great valley which reaches from the Mt. Of Olives to way beyond the present Jerusalem site. Rev. tells us the Holy City, the New Jerusalem will descend and it will be inhabited by the saved.


12.7
The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.

Romans 1.16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Romans 2:9-11
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
For there is no respect of persons with God.

12.10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. And the land shall mourn, every family apart;




As we noted at the beginning, that spirit of grace was poured out when Christ came to His people back at the first coming. This text is a prophecy of Christ’s crucifixion. (see John 19:37)
For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled...They shall look on him whom they pierced.
The priests and rulers were amazed that Jesus should die so quickly. To make sure of His death, at their suggestion a soldier thrust a spear into the Savior’s side. From the wound flowed two distinct streams, one of blood, the other of water.
The fountain of cleansing from sin! The blood to wash away the sins of all who believe in His name, and the water representing that living water of life.
1 John 1:7 the blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all sin.
Zech 13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

The fountain was OPENED THEN. When the “wailing” begins, it will be too late.

Numerous times Jesus told the individuals responsible for His death that they would someday--
(Mark 14.62) “see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. “

Rev. 1.7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.

Matt. 13.49-50
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[Quasar]

"To the angel of the church in Smyrna, write: These are the words of Him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again. I know your affliction and your poverty - yet you are rich! I know the slander of those who say they are Jews [Israel] and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan." Rev.2:8-9.

"I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews [Israel] though they are not, but are liars - I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowldge that I have loved you." Rev.3:9. [Parenthetics mine].

This will conclude my discussion with you pertaining to 'who Israel is,' Dedication. Your views are not shared by the much larger majority who abandoned the heresies you are obsessed with many years ago, that fueled the Crusades in the dark ages.

In Christ!

Quasar

[me again]

"To the angel of the church in Smyrna, write: These are the words of Him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again. I know your affliction and your poverty - yet you are rich! I know the slander of those who say they are Jews [Israel] and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan." Rev.2:8-9.

"I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews [Israel] though they are not, but are liars - I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowldge that I have loved you." Rev.3:9. [Parenthetics mine].This will conclude my discussion with you pertaining to 'who Israel is,' Dedication. Your views are not shared by the much larger majority who abandoned the heresies you are obsessed with many years ago, that fueled the Crusades in the dark ages.Quasar,

Regarding the scriptures that you posted...

It sounds like the Lord Jesus has classified the Jews who rejected His messiah-status as "Those who claim they are Israel -- and are not." Or to say it another way, it sounds like the Lord Jesus has classified the Jews who are still holding on to the O.T. system as "Those who claim they are Israel -- and are not."

It seems to me that there was, is and always will be one Israel. Conversely, lets ask the question: "Was (or is) Abraham a member of the Body of Christ"? If Abraham was (or is) saved, then is he not saved by what Jesus did on the cross at Calvery??? The saving blood of Jesus goes forwards (as well as backwards) in time. The saving blood of Jesus covers the saved-dead as well as the saved-unborn (ah, here we starting getting into Calvinism, so I won't go any further).

While I disagree with some of "dedication's" theological viewpoints, I agree with her interpretation that the true spiritual Israel is, indeed, the Body of Christ. All of the saints that will enter the kingdom of heaven will do so by the blood of Jesus, from the O.T. saints all the way to the N.T. saints. They are one Body and one Church, are they not???

[dedication]

"To the angel of the church in Smyrna, write: These are the words of Him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again. I know your affliction and your poverty - yet you are rich! I know the slander of those who say they are Jews [Israel] and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan." Rev.2:8-9.

I agree with Me-Again, that this is speaking of the literal Jews who were claiming to be "God's people" yet have rejected the "First and the Last, who died and came to life again" and are now slandering and persecuting the church-- the true Israel.

Romans 2.28-29
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Christ Himself had something to say about that in John 8.


As to the crusades when Christians tried to "recapture" Jesusalem for Christ--

I'm sorry Quasar, in all due respect to your convictions, which I believe you honestly and sincerely accept as truth,
I yet find your statement full of irony,

Why were the crusades launched?

"The purpose of the crusades was to recapture “the Holy Land”, that was taken from them by Islam soldiers. The first crusaders took place in 1095 when the Muslim group Seljuk Turks took control of Jerusalem after the death of their leader Muhammad in 632.

The whole crusade business was a misguided conviction that God's purposes would still be fulfilled through a piece of real estate in the Middle East, that had to be wrested from the Muslims.

That is EXACTLY what the popular interpretation is promoting today--
Let's drive out the Arabs, get rid of their holy places, pull down their mosques etc. etc. etc.
I'm even suspicious that Bushes' war on Iraq has the overtones of a modern day "crusade".

No, brother--
There is NO salvation whatsoever in old Jerusalem. As pretaining to salvation, it matters not at all who controls it's territory.
The turmoil and strife generated there in the name of God, is not of God.

Salvation is ONLY through Christ, and our home and citizenship is in the HEAVENLY JERUSALEM.

There is NO NEED what-so-ever for a temple that denies the sacrifice of Christ. The religious significance of an Israeli temple was done--over--finished when the curtain was ripped from top to bottom at Christ's crucifixion.
Israel of the flesh, is not what counts, but the Israel of faith will be saved through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.

[dedication]

"I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews [Israel] though they are not, but are liars - I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowldge that I have loved you." Rev.3:9. [Parenthetics mine].

Quasar, read the verses that introduce that verse which you quoted:
"And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it. (Rev.3:7,8)

The Israel of the flesh, refused to follow Christ through the newly opened door of salvation-- a living way through Christ, not through temple sacrifices.
When Jesus at His ascension entered by His own blood into the heavenly sanctuary to shed upon His disciples the blessings of His mediation and His Spirit, those Jews who refused to accept this were left in total darkness to continue their useless sacrifices and offerings. They were no longer "Israel" in the true sense, only "Israel of the flesh" which accounted them nothing. The ministration of types and shadows had ceased. That door by which men had formerly found access to God was no longer open.

The modern attempt to "reopen" doors that Christ shut, and claim that this re-establishment of a temple with sacrifices etc. etc. is the "true Israel" are doomed to failure-- their earthly kingdom will fail. Daniel 11:45 says it will come to it's end.

[Quasar]

Hi Me Again -

You said:

>>>Quasar,

Regarding the scriptures that you posted...

It sounds like the Lord Jesus has classified the Jews who rejected His messiah-status as "Those who claim they are Israel -- and are not." Or to say it another way, it sounds like the Lord Jesus has classified the Jews who are still holding on to the O.T. system as "Those who claim they are Israel -- and are not."

It seems to me that there was, is and always will be one Israel. Conversely, lets ask the question: "Was (or is) Abraham a member of the Body of Christ"? If Abraham was (or is) saved, then is he not saved by what Jesus did on the cross at Calvery??? The saving blood of Jesus goes forwards (as well as backwards) in time. The saving blood of Jesus covers the saved-dead as well as the saved-unborn (ah, here we starting getting into Calvinism, so I won't go any further).

While I disagree with some of "dedication's" theological viewpoints, I agree with her interpretation that the true spiritual Israel is, indeed, the Body of Christ. All of the saints that will enter the kingdom of heaven will do so by the blood of Jesus, from the O.T. saints all the way to the N.T. saints. They are one Body and one Church, are they not???<<<

The point I was making are those who claim to be Israel [The Church], whom Jesus refers to as Jews, who make up the original Israel. However, after the dividing of the tribes into two kingdoms, Judah is the tribe from where the Jews are associated. Following that, remnants of all the 12 tribes have infiltrated back into Judah, known now as Israel.

Absolutely! All of the OT saints, as Abraham was depicted in Jesus narrative in Lk.16:19-31 - the perfect profile of the OT Sheol - Jesus shed blood saved them as well, and He took them in His train to heaven when He ascended. Ps.68:18 and Eph.4:7-10.

Therefore, all the Jews of Israel who are converted, such as the 144,000 in Rev.7 will be, they then belong to the Church, and spirit/souls of the OT saints are now with the Lord in heaven as all of we believing Gentiles who have died in Christ - also are. 2 Cor.5:6-8 and Phil.1:21-23.

The point here is this: All the OT saints, like Jews who are converted to Christianity during the present time frame, then belong to the Church! Not to Israel. Although they always remain Jews. Indeed, Israel will always be unbelieving Israel - until they see their Messiah whom they pierced [Zech.12:10] when Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation in His second advent to the earth [Zech.14:4-5, Jude 14 and Rev.19:14].

Then, during Jesus Millennial kingdom here on earth, immediately following the tribulation and His return, the sheep pen and 'other sheep,' Jesus said He must bring with Him also, in Jn.10:16, become one fold with one shepherd!

Meanwhile, the Church never takes the place of Israel, nor do they become Jews! Through the remnant of what is left of Israel after the tribulation when they see Messiah Jesus and finally believe - technically, they all become members of the Church! Not the other way around!

In Christ!

Quasar

[dedication]

Quasar wrote: Your views are not shared by the much larger majority who abandoned the heresies you are obsessed with many years ago, that fueled the Crusades in the dark ages.

Now my view, remember is that the MIDDLE EAST and the restoration of a Jewish temple plays no role whatsoever in the salvation issues of the endtime. It is all a big smoke screen to hide the REAL ISSUES, and bring in the biggest deceptions this world will yet face.

True Israelites are all who are in Christ, the ONE TRUE ISRAEL.

I find it totally ironic that Quasar should say that my views fueled the Crusades. :rolleyes:

The crusades were sent to wrest the supposed "holy land" out of the hands of the Muslems...
What is happening today?
TODAY THE BIGGEST THREAT to peace in the MIDDLE EAST is the theory that Quasar is presenting.-- which is all about wresting the "holy land" out of the hands of the Muslems!

That is a known and established fact!!!

Here's just one site showing this:

http://www.stopmoskowitz.org/article0043.shtml

Its a very tragic situation in which Christian fundamentalists, certain groups of them that focus on Armageddon and the Rapture and the role of a war between Muslims and Jews in bringing about the Second Coming, are involved in a folie deux with extremist Jews, said Ian Lustick, a professor of political science at the University of Pennsylvania, a consultant on the Middle East to the last four presidential administrations and the author of the book For the Land and the Lord: Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel.....


The intransigence of certain Christian fundamentalists mirrors that of many right-wing Israelis, notably the ultra-nationalist religious settlers on the West Bank who view the conquest of the West Bank as part of a plan for divine redemption and who oppose a peace settlement that would involve Israel ceding any inch of territory it controls. For many of these settlers, rebuilding the Temple, an activity that would almost inevitably involve the destruction of the Dome of the Rock, Islams third-holiest site, which is believed to lie on the ruins of the old Temple, has become a rallying cry.


Another reporter declares:
Christian fundamentalists drive Bush's Middle East policy http://www.fromoccupiedpalestine.org/node.php?id=1188&PHPSESSID=f939007991fd54121dac58e56a90947a

For 15% of the electorate, the Middle East is not just a domestic matter, it's a personal one: if the president fails to start a conflagration there, his core voters don't get to sit at the right hand of God. Bush, in other words, stands to lose fewer votes by encouraging Israeli aggression than he stands to lose by restraining it.

Or look at this report written several years ago:

http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/israel/alliance.htm

The Christian Zionists Message

What is the message of the Christian Zionist? Simply stated it is this: Every act taken by Israel is orchestrated by God, and should be condoned, supported, and even praised by the rest of us.

"Never mind what Israel does," say the Christian Zionists. "God wants this to happen." This includes the invasion of Lebanon, which killed or injured an estimated 100,000 Lebanese and Palestinians, most of them civilians; the bombing of sovereign nations such as Iraq; the deliberate, methodical brutalizing of the Palestinians-breaking bones, shooting children, and demolishing homes; and the expulsion of Palestinian Christians and Muslims from a land they have occupied for over 2,000 years.

My premise in Prophecy and Politics is that Christian Zionism is a dangerous and growing segment of Christianity, which was popularized by the 19th-century American Cyrus Scofield when he wrote into a Bible his interpretation of events in history. These events all centered around Israel-past, present, and future. His Scofield Bible is today the most popular of the reference Bibles.

Scofield said that Christ cannot return to earth until certain events occur: The Jews must return to Palestine, gain control of Jerusalem and rebuild a temple, and then we all must engage in the final, great battle called Armageddon.


Which view, in all truth generates the "crusade" mentality!!!

The answer falls squarely in the lap of the futurists!

[Tom]

The Christian Zionists Message

What is the message of the Christian Zionist? Simply stated it is this: Every act taken by Israel is orchestrated by God, and should be condoned, supported, and even praised by the rest of us.

"Never mind what Israel does," say the Christian Zionists. "God wants this to happen." This includes the invasion of Lebanon, which killed or injured an estimated 100,000 Lebanese and Palestinians, most of them civilians; the bombing of sovereign nations such as Iraq; the deliberate, methodical brutalizing of the Palestinians-breaking bones, shooting children, and demolishing homes; and the expulsion of Palestinian Christians and Muslims from a land they have occupied for over 2,000 years.

My premise in Prophecy and Politics is that Christian Zionism is a dangerous and growing segment of Christianity, which was popularized by the 19th-century American Cyrus Scofield when he wrote into a Bible his interpretation of events in history. These events all centered around Israel-past, present, and future. His Scofield Bible is today the most popular of the reference Bibles.

Scofield said that Christ cannot return to earth until certain events occur: The Jews must return to Palestine, gain control of Jerusalem and rebuild a temple, and then we all must engage in the final, great battle called Armageddon.


Which view, in all truth generates the "crusade" mentality!!!

The answer falls squarely in the lap of the futurists!

You have got to be kidding me. Who wrote this piece Yassar Arafat?

"The deliberate abuse of Palestinians" You mean the terrorist predators who blow up busloads of innocent civilians.

You talk about the "Crusade mentality" like it was a bad thing. Bad for who? The millions of women, Christians and others who live under the oppression of Islamic governments? No, not them. The millions of people who live in countries with no clean water to drink or enough food to eat because their country is run by Islamic clerics rather than people who actually know how to run a country? No, not them. Oh, you must mean bad for those who want to force their beliefs on the rest of the world and blow up or murder everybody who thinks they are full of crap. Yep, your right it's bad for them.

It seems pretty clear to me. Even if you don't believe Israel is chosen by God, which they are, they are the only valid form of civilization in the middle east that any democracy should support anyway. The rest are a bunch of third rate countries run by Islamic terrorist, who oppress their own people and export their terroristic ways to the rest of the world.

Tom

[dedication]

Crusade mentality bad?--
Quasar seems to think so (and he is right) only he has the reality of the modern version all backwards.

Tom, you wrote some really wild stuff, that is totally anti-christian.

If I ran things in this country I would get on the phone and call up the prime minister of Israel and tell him to fire up the bulldozers and head to the Temple Mount because the Mosque that was sitting there was coming down and the temple was going back up. I would then dispatch whatever forces were necessary to insure the safety of the operation.

I would then send a dispatch to the leader of every Islamic nation in the world telling them that we would shortly be attacking every Islamic holy sight and destroying it begining with Mecca.

Hmmm.... yes you would start a war just to destroy one person's religion and set up an equally defunct building. What kind of Christian witness is this that promotes a temple which clearly denies Christ?

Now, let's change the scene some. What if some Protestants, let's say maybe the Baptists, (]now this is a purely hypothetical scenario and NOT reality AT ALL, nor do I in any way, shape or form, advocate such a thing, ) but what if some Protestants, 70 years ago decided, that Rome belonged to them and was to be the center of TRUE Christianity instead of what Protestants consider the false system. So they forced all the Roman citizens into refugee camps, and because of resistance, killed whole villages of men, women and children in the surrounding area and took over their homes to gain a strong foothold. Today, they decide to "fire up the bulldozers and head for the Vatican because it's "holy places" were coming down and they were going to set up their own holy places there, and then they dispatch the message that every Catholic shrine in the world was coming down, all the "mary" sites, etc. and that they would send in all the forces necessary to see the task was done?

I hope you can see the stupidity in such a move. While any true Protestant is opposed to the Papal Dynasty and history is filled with Papal directed cruelity for the extermination of all those who refuse to believe according to her mandates, the mentality of force and bulldozers is NOT the way Christians react or promote the gospel.

Yet, that is exactly the mentality of the futuristic interpretation-- It is just as obsured as the hypothedical scenerio above, and would only results in giving Christianity a name it's already received from many, of being the worst ideology for creating strife and bloodshed.



You wrote:
I would advise that if they truly believe Allah is god that perhaps they should pray really hard to see if he could stop it.

If God really wants a temple in Jerusalem, why does he need you starting world war three in order to build it?

After destroying their civilization and seizing all of the oil I would run a US, Israeli and Christian flag up the poles in Mecca and rule the whole deal till Jesus comes.

Yes, that is the ultimate goal isn't it!
The oil-- get control of the oil-- and rule -- and force your religion on all others!

Oh, yes, people will point to the oppressive governments SOME of the Arab nations have and with righteous indignation say they have to "make life better" for the Arabs. Yah, Yah--- in the next breath they say they want "to destroy their civilization and sieze all their assets". No wonder Arabs don't want US "liberation".

And also-- why are so many other poorer countries suffering under "oppressive rule" and the US government doesn't do anything about it. People can die like flies in other countries and one doesn't even hear it on the news--- but the middle east-- that's where the MONEY is, wrapped up with Christian zealots who think the second coming of Christ is tied up with their pitching the world into chaos just to build some temple.

So then they do all they can to stir the world into total strife and blood shed with the LIE that if they do so they will be raptured to heaven and enjoy peace and tranquilty.

Not much different than Moslem beliefs at all!!!


Well, anyway-- you can tell I see this whole "futuristic" interpretation as WRONG, deceptive, and of a totally different spirit than what Christ would have us possess.

I'm not against any person here, -- but I do find this "doctrine" to be very wrong.

[Tom]

It isn't my desire to force any religion on anyone. It is my desire to stop these terroristic monsters before they harm more innocents. You have been brainwashed by the secular humanist view of events on the middle east.

I'm not sure what anti semitic cult you are a member of but your perspective is based upon propoganda.

Israel belongs to the Jews. God gave it to them. They are the children of the promise. Scripture teaches Christ will return when all the nations of the world come against Jerusalem.

You see the heresy which you believe is nothing more than a fulfillment of prophecy. In order for all the nations of the world to come against Israel the world must be predominately inhabited by folks who do not have a clue as to the reality of the situation. See, this is where you come in. Your part in history. You are part of the great delusion God said He would send. I read your postings and I'm sure yo uhave no idea as to this fact but they are totally illogical. They show an underdeveloped and juvenile understanding of the scriptures. It is clear to me you just don't get it. But that's OK, I'm sure you will come to serve what ever purpose God had in creating you.

Tom

[dedication]

Oh the irony of it all---

I'm sorry but, stop and thing about it, it is your views which are based on propaganda-- a propaganda that is being beaten into the heads of people all over North-America, day after day, after day. The demonizing of Arabs. Yes, they have problems, many of them resulting directly from the way they were treated, others from their faulty view of God. But the propaganda is ONE SIDED which is heard on the news casts.


As far as anti-semitic--
The anti-Semitic cult is the futuristic cult that is teaching the Jews that their salvation will come through a temple that holds NO SALVATION OF ANY KIND, rather than leading them to Jesus and pointing them to the heavenly High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary.

The anti-Semitic cult is the futuristic cult that teaches that the Jewish inheritance is a piece of property in the middle east where they will be ruled over by glorified Christians, when in REALITY their inheritance is the eternal inheritance which Christ died to give them, in which all who accept the marvoulous gift of life and grace will share equally in the eternal rewards with all who are redeemed in Christ.

The great delusion is in believing in an earthly kingdom of flesh and blood--
The great delusion is in believing there is a second chance in which forces will force people into Christian worship.
The great delusion will be in thinking Christ is reigning somewhere on earth.
It won't be Christ our Savior -- it will be the impersonator, Satan himself, who has inspired this interpretation through his Jesuit helpers way back in the 16th century and has now brought to full bloom.


This whole deception is geared to plunge the world into scenes of strife and heartache of massive dimensions. Force and law will be used to try to line people up to human theories and traditions


That's when the whole world arrays itself against Christ the giver of LIFE, LOVE, SALVATION, as well as justice.
Yes, then Christ will come--
to take those who have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb, home with Him.
The rest will first shed their own blood in their mad vengence upon one another blaming each other for the deception they accepted till finally the brightness of His coming ends the sorry mess which they chose for themselves, and the earth is left desolate for 1000 years.