God's Foreknowledge

[saved]

The following is an aticle I wrote because of a discussion with another baptist. I would like others imput on it good or bad.
By the way I will include a link to anothers view in somewhat agreement. He gets into some deeper calvinism, but I am not interested in getting into that. I am only interested in the Foreknowledge of God.

God’s foreknowledge;

God is all knowing. However that does not mean He knows every event in all history before it happens. He clearly did not know that men would become as evil as they have, based on certain scriptures of regret that He shows when it does come to light and I will list some in the following article. If He knew ahead of time that men would be like they are and then declare that He is repented that He ever made man it makes no sense since it is inevitable to happen. That is not to say that he did not know the possibilities, but the actual happenings were un-known until they took place. Also such a belief that God knows all history before it happens makes God subject to that history since it cannot be changed. It requires God to work according to that history and not according to Devine Sovereign power that he alone has vested to Himself.

God is Sovereign and he works within that attribute without knowing every event before it happens. Nothing can overcome Him since He alone holds all power and authority for all eternity. This is not to suggest that God is learning new things. He is not. God has no more knowledge today then He did in eternity past. He alone posses’ all knowledge, but that knowledge is knowledge that can be known based on His Holy nature, not on some crystal ball type system of future events. Every prophesy in the bible of future events is not Him looking ahead and telling us what will be. Those who hold that view have a much too small god in power and ability since that would mean that He does not control history, but watches to see how it will work. All prophesy is God deciding what will be and declaring it (predestining) then telling forth His knowledge of it to us so we can see the mighty hand of God in action throughout time.
God has ordained the beginning and the end and certain events in-between which we have scripture on. The cross is one event he has done this with. There are many others however. The rest of History will play into the plan as He has set it in motion and nothing can change that. God has not need to know future events outside His predestined will since all will come to closure as He has ordained it to be and foreknows it though faith by predestination of His sovereign choosing. We are told that all that the father gives the Son will come to Him. This is Sovereign choice and predestined will of God or foreknowledge as is translated in scripture.
I personally believe that to teach that foreknowledge is God knowing what will happen in history before it happens apart from predestination is to deny the absolute sovereignty of God since it makes God subject to things to come rather then things to come subject to God’s predestination (foreknowledge).

GEN. 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

There is no need for being sorry for making man if He knew ahead of time all that men would do.

EX. 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
Again, this would be an empty threat if he knew that He was going to not do it any way.

What about verses that claim that God has foreknowledge;

Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

First let’s look at the words (determinate). The Greek word that translates this is; horizon which means; 1) to define
a) to mark out the boundaries or limits (of any place or thing)
1b to determine, appoint
1) that which has been determined, acc. to appointment, decree
2) to ordain, determine, appoint

In other words God ordain that Christ would be killed. Man only followed through with Gods determination.

Counsel: the Greek word is boule {boo-lay'} and means; 1) counsel, purpose. In other words it was God’s purpose and appointment that Christ dies for men and that men kill Him on a cross. God ordained will of God took place. By this we now can better understand the word (foreknowledge). God foreknew because He foreordained. The greek word for foreknowledge is; prognosis {prog'-no-sis} . It means; 1) foreknowledge
2) forethought, pre-arrangement
His knowledge was perfect because He declared what was to take place. Now with that in mind as with any exegetes what the term means in one place it has to carry the same meaning in other places unless there is clear evidence that the word has a different meaning. The conclusion is that when God claims foreknowledge he is claiming to know because He ordains what is being spoken of. In other words nothing can overcome the word of God and what he ordains so he knows what he says will happen like He says it.

In 1Peter 1:2 we read;
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

The passage is saying that those who come to God are his elect through the sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience and the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ and this is all by His foreknowledge. That means that God in eternity past ordained salvation by the stated process. It is Not that He necessarily knew who would be saved or who would not. It is the foreknowledge that we the elect would be His elect by the stated manner of salvation.

In Romans 11:2 we have the same issue;
God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

The word foreknew is the same Greek word proginosko {prog-in-oce'-ko} which again means 1) to have knowledge before hand
2) to foreknow
a) of those whom God elected to salvation
3) to predestinate
So He knows because he ordains it. Not because He knows by looking down through History to see what will happen. The same Greek word is translated foreknow 2, foreordain 1, know 1, know before, throughout scripture, but is not to be confused with knowing because of looking down through history. It always means to know because of ordaining it. To ordain means to decide that it will happen. So God knows what will happen when He ordains it to happen. Throughout scripture He ordains certain things to take place and by that He knows (determines) the end from the beginning. Foreknowledge. Praise God for His foreknowledge.

The following is an article by ARTHUR W. PINK
http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Attributes/attrib_04.htm

[Tom]

I believe God's foreknowledge to all encompassing and complete. He knew lucifer would rebel before he created him and he knew man would fall before he created him as well. This is why Christ is refered to as the "The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

I think that if God's foreknowledge were limited it would pose another dilemma. If He were, He would be subject to time. What I mean by this is that God created time to contain his creation and because it is his creation he can not be subject to it.

Let me try to explain what I am thinking here.

God created time. I beleive he did so to contain his creation and to maintain order. Without it the world we know couldn't exist. The reason we do not know the future is because from our perspective it hasn't happened yet. I don't belive that God has this limited perspective. I think he can see yesterday, today and until the end of time with equal clarity. I think it is all laid out before him. If it were any other way he would be constrained by his own creation, time.

[me again]

I believe God's foreknowledge to all encompassing and complete. He knew lucifer would rebel before he created him and he knew man would fall before he created him as well. This is why Christ is refered to as the "The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

I think that if God's foreknowledge were limited it would pose another dilemma. If He were, He would be subject to time. What I mean by this is that God created time to contain his creation and because it is his creation he can not be subject to it.

Let me try to explain what I am thinking here.

God created time. I beleive he did so to contain his creation and to maintain order. Without it the world we know couldn't exist. The reason we do not know the future is because from our perspective it hasn't happened yet. I don't belive that God has this limited perspective. I think he can see yesterday, today and until the end of time with equal clarity. I think it is all laid out before him. If it were any other way he would be constrained by his own creation, time.
Wow, I finally meet someone who has the exact same understanding of "time" as I do. Finally!!!

"Time" was created by God and there is coming a period when "time," as we know it, will cease to exist:Revelation 10:5-7
And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.Not only will "time" run out, but "time" as we know it will be changed.

The naysayers will just have to wait and see. :banana:

[Tom]

That's cool Me Again.

I have tried to explain my view on this to others before but they looked at me like I should be in a rubber room. It's good to know there are others to whom God has given this knowledge as well.

There is much that I don't know but I do know that time is a God created container and he is not subject to it.

Imagine if when we got to our eternal reward and God said well done, what would you like to do? We could reply Lord I would like to be able to wander through time at my will from age to age and see the history of the world unwind.

Hang out with Jesus and the 12 for a couple of days, see Moses lead the children of Israel out of Egypt, the battle of Jericho, lunch with the Apostle Paul. The ultimate vacation.

Tom

[saved]

Tom,
those are all very nice beliefs. However they cannot be supported by scripture. No place does scripture suggest that God knew Satan would rebel. Nor is there any place that teaches what you hold as time its necessity or creation. Time has always been. The definition of time is any period where someone or something exists. God has always been so time has always been. The accounting for time may have come into existence through the creation, but not time itself.

[Tom]

According to this logic, "God has always been so time has always been," then that would indicate that, "when time shall be no more," (Rev 10, 5-7) God would cease to exist. As we know this is not the case, this is not sound logic.

If God's foreknowledge is not complete then He is not in control. He is becomes a celestial, hand wringing, reactionary. God knows all. He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. He laid the plan of salvation before the foundation of the earth.

I will freely admit that it is hard if not impossible to reconcile this with issues such as God changing his mind. I also find divine anger impossible to understand. The reason being that to my mind anger implies surprise and dis appointment not things we associate with omniscience. However, like many other things this is a Deut. 29:29 thing.

God Bless,
Tom

[Tom]

Tom,
Time has always been.
I would be interested in hearing your scriptural support for this view. I believe time was created in Genesis 1:14. God is without beginning and without end. Scripture says all things were created by him and for him and without him nothing was made. Please explain your viewpoint.

Tom

[saved]

According to this logic, "God has always been so time has always been," then that would indicate that, "when time shall be no more," (Rev 10, 5-7) God would cease to exist. As we know this is not the case, this is not sound logic.

If God's foreknowledge is not complete then He is not in control. He is becomes a celestial, hand wringing, reactionary. God knows all. He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. He laid the plan of salvation before the foundation of the earth.

I will freely admit that it is hard if not impossible to reconcile this with issues such as God changing his mind. I also find divine anger impossible to understand. The reason being that to my mind anger implies surprise and dis appointment not things we associate with omniscience. However, like many other things this is a Deut. 29:29 thing.

God Bless,
Tom

Tom you need to be more careful in reading your bible. The p[assage in the Rev 10:6 is not suggestinmg that time wilkl end, but that it has run out for those on the earth and the judgement is at hand. They have no more time is the idea.

God does not need to know every event ahead of time and scripture no place suggests He does. It actually suggests that he does not. What He does know is what he ordains and the rest is not important since everything will fall into His plan.

[saved]

I would be interested in hearing your scriptural support for this view. I believe time was created in Genesis 1:14. God is without beginning and without end. Scripture says all things were created by him and for him and without him nothing was made. Please explain your viewpoint.

Tom

I gave my view if you read it. According to the diffination of time it is any period in which someone or something has existed. God has always existed so that means that time has always been. However I would agree that how time is determind is a new thing caused by the creation, but not time itself.

[cdhale]

I always thought time was the relationship between two objects. Earth orbits sun = one year. stuff like that.

how can existence of something be time? Not necessarily disagreeing, Saved, I just don't understand.

clint

[kevingaily]

It is written that God dewlls in eternity. There was no time before the creation of the universe. Likewise, after God wraps it up we will be back to an eternal state of being.

I see your point saved, but clearly there was no time in the void of nothingness that existed before creation. How do I know? Well, one good indication is found in the name of God. He is: I am that I am. He is the God that transcends all time and matter. He always was. Before the earth.... I am. After the earth is gone.... I am. I am is the verb to be. He simply IS. He always is. He forever is. Hebrew language doesn't use the verb "to be" like others do. They don't say " I am hungry." They say, " I hungry." The verb to be is reserved for God alone. That's why those words are in italics in the KJV because they aren't in the origional text. I really think it is this way for a reason.

I think time became a reality after the universe was created.... like Clint said. Time is a process of using objects to measure longivity. With nothing but a void, there was no instrument to measure time.

As far as foreknowledge, I agree with Tom and Me again. Perhaps the only disagreement would be in the definition of the Greek word prognosko which means to know beforehand. Some believes this erases all choice, but I believe that it doesn't. I believe that God's will is as it is, in part, because he knows the choices of men before they came to be. However, that isn't the crux of this discussion, so I digress. :D

[Barry]

Where does Scripture state that God does not exist in time?

IHS,
Barry

[Tom]

No one said God doesn't exist in time. I said he created time and is not subject to it.

Tom

[Barry]

How can He exist in time yet not be subject to it? If He's not subject to it, then He exists outside the realm of time.

IHS,
Barry

[Tom]

Saved,

I am looking for your definition of time in the dictionary and I can't find it. Notice it says a measurable period.

Main Entry: [1]time
Pronunciation: 'tIm
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English tIma; akin to Old Norse tImi time, Old English tId —more at TIDE
Date: before 12th century
1 a : the measured or measurable period during which an action, process, or condition exists or continues : DURATION b : a nonspatial continuum that is measured in terms of events which succeed one another from past through present to future c : LEISURE <time for reading>
2 : the point or period when something occurs : OCCASION
3 a : an appointed, fixed, or customary moment or hour for something to happen, begin, or end <arrived ahead of time> b : an opportune or suitable moment <decided it was time to retire>; often used in the phrase about time <about time for a change>
4 a : an historical period : AGE b : a division of geologic chronology c : conditions at present or at some specified period — usually used in plural <times are hard> <move with the times> d : the present time <issues of the time>
5 a : LIFETIME b : a period of apprenticeship c : a term of military service d : a prison sentence
6 : SEASON <very hot for this time of year>
7 a : rate of speed : TEMPO b : the grouping of the beats of music : RHYTHM
8 a : a moment, hour, day, or year as indicated by a clock or calendar <what time is it> b : any of various systems (as sidereal or solar) of reckoning time
9 a : one of a series of recurring instances or repeated actions <you've been told many times> b : plural (1) : added or accumulated quantities or instances <five times greater> (2) : equal fractional parts of which an indicated number equal a comparatively greater quantity <seven times smaller> <three times closer> c : TURN <three times at bat>
10 : finite as contrasted with infinite duration
11 : a person's experience during a specified period or on a particular occasion <a good time> <a hard time>
12 a : the hours or days required to be occupied by one's work <make up time> <on company time> b : an hourly pay rate <straight time> c : wages paid at discharge or resignation

[Tom]

How do I know God created time?

Colossians 1:16-17 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers- all things were created by him, and for him; And he is before all things, and by him all things exist.

Time is creation. You may have never considered this before but it is true.

Tom

[Tom]

How can He exist in time yet not be subject to it? If He's not subject to it, then He exists outside the realm of time.

IHS,
Barry

God is omnipresent, everywhere at everytime.

For sake of explanantion, pretend for a moment that time is roll of film unrolled on a table. Every moment of time is pictured in a frame. God is standing above the table looking at the slides. God is not only able to look at the pictures but he is able to be in them as well. All at the same time. The same way he can be in China and on Mars at the same time.

So, God is able to enter time and be outside of time. Does God exist in man? Can he enter into him and dwell inside of him? Yes. Is he subject to man? No. It is not a stretch to realize that time is just another one of God's creation that we take for granted. Little is known or understood about it and for the most part we dislike it because it is the keeper of our mortality.

It's not a very important issue and nothing to argue over, just an interesting thought.

Tom

[Barry]

Tom,
I understand the concept, what seems to be lacking is biblical support.

IHS,
Barry

[Tom]

Tom,
I understand the concept, what seems to be lacking is biblical support.

IHS,
Barry
I think there is adequate biblical support to indicate that God is the God of time as well as everything else. That is what this really amounts to, is God the God of time, does he control it, or is he limited by it?

We measure time by the revolutions of our planet. 1 revolution = 1day. This all came about in Genesis 1:14. According to our definition of time, no revolution of the earth, no time. God was able to stop the earth and to make "the sun stand still". Joshua 10-1-14. He stopped time there and allowed life to continue outside of it.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time; and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now there are many antichrists, by which we know it is the last time.

The statements last times, end times, all indicate that time is a temporary thing that will end or run out. Otherwise how could it the last or the end? If time was eternal it couldn't be the last of it.

Tom

[John Oscar]

This is going to turn into an open theism debate soon :rolleyes:

I'm actually a little surprised at you Saved, as you've always seemed to hold to the ultra-literal, classical views on theology.

I agree that time is a created thing, based from the verse in Colossians that Tom provided. Science has shown us that time has some type of substance (in my understanding of the general theory of relativity) that can be slowed down, sped up, and warped. Given those characteristics of time, it falls under a created thing, with rules, laws, and mechanisms of action like any other created thing.
If it is a non-sentient created thing, then it logically must be under the control of the creator, as the rest of the creation is.

Col 1:16-17
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things , and in him all things hold together.

Heb 11:3

3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

Ps 119:91
91 Your laws endure to this day, for all things serve you.

Eccl 11:5
so you cannot understand the work of God, the Maker of all things .

John 1:3

3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

If time is so separate from God that He cannot see past it, then our God is not omniscient, omnipresent, or omnipotent, as there is something in creation that He is subject to. Not only that, following this conclusion to it’s logical end, God could someday cease to exist, and if that is possible, then is He even still alive now?

Obviously, I don’t believe that, and I imagine Barry will have some great arguments in the defense of open theism (it’s really the only point we really disagree on).

Now, it could be argued that God chooses to not know the future, or specific details about the future. I could make this arguement stick, but I'm not sure what benifits God would have in choosing not to know something, other then His promise to forget our sins...

Love and blessings

[Tom]

Well said John.


Tom

[Zaph]

I have not read every word on in every post in this discussion. But I have to agree that God created time. It says so in Genesis. Take a look... Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

However, I do not believe that time will be done away with. Even in Heaven we will be apparently keeping time. Look at what Isaiah says... Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Just my two cents....

[saved]

I think there is adequate biblical support to indicate that God is the God of time as well as everything else. That is what this really amounts to, is God the God of time, does he control it, or is he limited by it?

We measure time by the revolutions of our planet. 1 revolution = 1day. This all came about in Genesis 1:14. According to our definition of time, no revolution of the earth, no time. God was able to stop the earth and to make "the sun stand still". Joshua 10-1-14. He stopped time there and allowed life to continue outside of it.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time; and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now there are many antichrists, by which we know it is the last time.

The statements last times, end times, all indicate that time is a temporary thing that will end or run out. Otherwise how could it the last or the end? If time was eternal it couldn't be the last of it.

Tom

Tom the pasage in Joshua does not say that time stoped. it says the sun stood still. Time continued. Time is any period where something or someone exists. God has always been so time has always been. How time is determind or counted may change, but time has always been. time is the result of the being of God. God is not accountable to anything except Himself. Time is not an entity as you are trying to make it. it is simply a result of His being. As for those passages you gave on the end times. all I can says is, :no: :no: :no: :snicker: :snicker: :rolleyes:

[saved]

This is going to turn into an open theism debate soon :rolleyes:

I'm actually a little surprised at you Saved, as you've always seemed to hold to the ultra-literal, classical views on theology.

I agree that time is a created thing, based from the verse in Colossians that Tom provided. Science has shown us that time has some type of substance (in my understanding of the general theory of relativity) that can be slowed down, sped up, and warped. Given those characteristics of time, it falls under a created thing, with rules, laws, and mechanisms of action like any other created thing.
If it is a non-sentient created thing, then it logically must be under the control of the creator, as the rest of the creation is.

Col 1:16-17
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things , and in him all things hold together.

Heb 11:3

3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

Ps 119:91
91 Your laws endure to this day, for all things serve you.

Eccl 11:5
so you cannot understand the work of God, the Maker of all things .

John 1:3

3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

If time is so separate from God that He cannot see past it, then our God is not omniscient, omnipresent, or omnipotent, as there is something in creation that He is subject to. Not only that, following this conclusion to it’s logical end, God could someday cease to exist, and if that is possible, then is He even still alive now?

Obviously, I don’t believe that, and I imagine Barry will have some great arguments in the defense of open theism (it’s really the only point we really disagree on).

Now, it could be argued that God chooses to not know the future, or specific details about the future. I could make this arguement stick, but I'm not sure what benifits God would have in choosing not to know something, other then His promise to forget our sins...

Love and blessings

John,
3I am afraid that i disagree. If God has to look down through time to know what is happening then He is subject to it. God is not subject to anything. I believe that he has withheld from Himself, at least in part, furure knowledge, and certain events. Those events in scripture that are given and future are all ordained and that is why he knows them.

[Tom]

Tom the pasage in Joshua does not say that time stoped. it says the sun stood still. Time continued. Time is any period where something or someone exists.

Saved, That is not the definition of time. Time is a measurable period. The objects like the sun are what is used to measure that period. I posted the definition of time for you in a previous post I didn't think it was that complex.


God has always been so time has always been. How time is determind or counted may change, but time has always been. time is the result of the being of God.

Again, your opinion and not a very good one. You hold everyone elses opinions to the standard of proving it with scripture, why does this not apply to your opinions?


God is not accountable to anything except Himself.
That is my point, but this statement is in conflict with your earlier statement that God's knowledge is limited. If his foreknowledge is limited, then he is subject to happenstance like anyone else and is trapped inside time.[/Quote]


Time is not an entity as you are trying to make it. it is simply a result of His being. As for those passages you gave on the end times. all I can says is, :no: :no: :no: :snicker: :snicker: :rolleyes:

Time is creation, I never said it was an entity. An entity implies it has will and an agenda, it doesn't.
I am not alone in my belief. The hymn write wrote "When the trumpet of the Lord shall sound and time shall be no more. And the morning breaks eternal, bright and fair.

Don't feel bad about not getting it, it's not your fault.
Tom

[John Oscar]

The main point of this discussion is this:
Do you believe....

That time is a created thing? If so, then God oversees it and is eternally existant in it (i.e. what we know as past present and future, God exists in the now of that time).
If not, the questions is time self existant, or a bi-product of existance, but without form or substance?

Blessings

[saved]

The main point of this discussion is this:
Do you believe....

That time is a created thing? If so, then God oversees it and is eternally existant in it (i.e. what we know as past present and future, God exists in the now of that time).
If not, the questions is time self existant, or a bi-product of existance, but without form or substance?

Blessings

John I think that the problem is that men cannot handle the idea that God has always been. It is one thing to say He has always been and another to be able to comprehend it. Our brains just cannot keep going back into infinity and comprehend the idea of eternal existence when it involves God. So what we have done is come up with teachings that are not biblical about time. Teachings like God lives outside of time and so forth.
In your questions about time being a created thing the answer is yes and no. First if we will take a look at the Gen. account we see that God created everything in 6 days. In the beginning of the creation there was no sun, stars moon or any other thing to determine time. However the scripture clearly shows that time was still there.
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

For there to be a reckoning of a day there has to be time. And that time was before there was any way to determind it as we do today by the Sun, stars and moon. There was time before there was any earth revolving around the Sun. Time is not an entity in itself and more then that it is the result of the creation and while it is true that God is not subject to it, time is a result of the being (or existence) of God. However that being said the manner in which time is now determined by man IS a part of the creation, but time itself has always been.
As to does God exsist in time, yes, but not necessarily in the same dimension of that time which we hold or value as our time. I believe that He moves in and out of that dimension. There is the aspect of time itself and the aspect of how time is valued, but time is as eternal as God Himself in my opinion.

So again there is no scripture that even suggests that time has not always been, or that God knows all eternity before it takes place. He does know the beginning from the end and that is because He has ordained it. He clearly does know certain other events as the scripture points out, but in every case He has ordain those events. To me this makes Him far more superior then does the idea that He knows everything in all history before it happens and knows it from eternity past,.
I hold that He knows every possible scenario of all eternity and if one thinks about that it will blow the mind. He then has created beings that are permitted to live out there lives within those possibilities yet they are governed by certain limits (parameters) He has ordained. By the way those possibilities are as infinite as He is and only governed by His omniscient and Sovereign will.

Now I realize that when this subject is brought up many feel that what is happening is that we are robbing God of some power or ability. I do not feel that. I feel that He has already been robbed by the teaching that He knows all eternity before it happens. On the other hand for Him to know every possibility for all eternity and create beings within those possibilities allowing them the freedom to live and act out their own wills and to still be able to hold control over those actions by His Devine and sovereign will blows my mind. Believe me it would be much easier for me to go with the mainstream on this and teach that God knows all history before it happens, but scripture in my opinion just does not bare that out. It actually points in the other direction in my opinion.
I will be looking for your reply, as well as those of others. God bless

[me again]

If God created "time," then He cannot be subject to it, except by His own choice. :idea:

[John Oscar]

Saved,
I've been giving this some thought, and I would have to disagree that the scriptures point to time always being.
I know that you don't hold too much credence to scientific evidence (I take it with a grain of salt, as it changes constantly), so I won't review what physics says about time.
Here are a couple of bible verses that explain why I believe as I do:

Ps 90:2
2 Before the mountains were brought forth,
Or ever You had formed the earth and the world,
Even from everlasting to everlasting (my note- defined in Webster’s-continuing long or indefinitely i.e. without time), You are God.
NKJV

Gen 1:14
14 Then God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years;

God had to have created time before this point, as He now gives a way for man to mark/measure it. However, to be fair, I could understand it also to mean that God simply acknowledged that there is time, and gave mankind a way to measure it.

Isa 60:19-20
"The sun shall no longer be your light by day, Nor for brightness shall the moon give light to you; But the LORD will be to you an everlasting light, And your God your glory. 20 Your sun shall no longer go down, Nor shall your moon withdraw itself; For the LORD will be your everlasting light, And the days of your mourning shall be ended.
NKJV

Here God removes the way of measuring time in His eternal kingdom/heaven. Perhaps because there is no reason to measure time, as it ceases to exist?

Dan 2:21
21 And He changes the times and the seasons; He removes kings and raises up kings; He gives wisdom to the wise
And knowledge to those who have understanding.
NKJV
Acts 17:26-27
26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings,
NKJV

God has the power to change time if He so wishes, as in Joshua with the Amorites (Josh 10:13-14)

Isa 41:4
4 Who has performed and done it, Calling the generations from the beginning? 'I, the LORD, am the first;
And with the last I am He.'"
NKJV.

Rev 21:6
6 And He said to me,"It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.
NKJV

God is saying that He is and was before all, and will be there when everything is not. To me, Saved, that has to include time…

You are correct in saying that the bible does not come right out and give us a doctrine about time, but I think taking into consideration all of the evidence, God can measure time, He can change time, He existed before there was a way to measure time, and to me that means He created time….

We may never come to an agreement about this, but I hope I showed you why I believe as I do.

Love and blessings

[saved]

John,
thank you for sharing your views and how you arive at them. I admit that what I have said goes aginst the mainstream of teachings and I would love to see it like you do, but based on the scriptures I see it differently. One day we will know for sure.

[John Oscar]

Amen brother! I long for the day when all of this fussing over words will seem meaningless as we gaze upon His wonderful face!

Love and blessings