Pope comes out against death penalty

[Cop4Christ]

Somebody needs to buy that fellow a Bible.

[Leo Volont]

Somebody needs to buy that fellow a Bible.

If the Jews were so Religiously Enlightened, they had a funny way of proving it.

The Jews were so careless of their Religion that Three Oriental Kings traveled thousands of miles to salute and pay homage at the Advent of the King of Kings. The Jews, the People who were supposed to be gifted with Prophets and Prophecy, were caught entirely unawares. With such proof that the Jews were obviously out of touch with God and Things Divine, why are you surprised that they would support Murder when the Pope doesn't. Maybe if the Pope had been in charge way back when, we would have had a Messianic Dispensation and the Reign of the King of Kings, instead of having to celebrate a Dead Body and making up a "Best Spin We Can Put On It" Salvation.

[Tom]

Leo,

You are as lost as last years Easter eggs.

Tom

[Ed]

Leo,

You are as lost as last years Easter eggs.

Tom
LOL :snicker:

[Cortese]

Maybe if the Pope had been in charge way back when, we would have had a Messianic Dispensation and the Reign of the King of Kings, instead of having to celebrate a Dead Body and making up a "Best Spin We Can Put On It" Salvation.

Wow, I don't know of any Christian that celebrates over a dead body. I personally rejoice in the fact that Christ is very much alive and sits at the right hand of God where he will come to judge the living and the dead.

Leo, since you brought up salvation, I read a previous post where you said we have to earn our salvation. Can you please explain to me how one "earns" salvation? Also, please provide scriptural references to support your beliefs.

[Tom]

Cortese,

Leo considers scripture to be irrelevant. He goes according to Church tradition, papal decree and any mysterious appearance the devil happens to make in a Virgin Mary suit.

Tom

[Cortese]

Leo considers scripture to be irrelevant. He goes according to Church tradition, papal decree and any mysterious appearance the devil happens to make in a Virgin Mary suit.

If you cannot use Scripture to back up your claims then you are simply expressing an opinion. Opinions are usually based upon feelings and emotions which I consider inconsequential because they can change from moment to moment. Thankfully the Lord is unchanging from moment and He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

If this is true what you just told me, how sad it is to hear that somebody would consider His Word to be irrelevant. However, I would still like to challenge Leo on this topic to see if he can use Scripture to support his claims.

[Ed]

Snip...
How sad it is to hear that somebody would consider His Word to be irrelevant. However, I would still like to challenge Leo on this topic to see if he can use Scripture to support his claims.
Leo believes that the Apostle Paul was a heretic and that the portions of scripture that he wrote in the N.T. should be deleted. :nervous: :doh:

[North]

Cortese,

Leo considers scripture to be irrelevant. He goes according to Church tradition, papal decree and any mysterious appearance the devil happens to make in a Virgin Mary suit.

Tom

I don't think this is fair to the Roman Catholic Church. Leo does not follow scripture but nor does he follow the Catholic Church teaching. He has a strange mix of doctrines. If I recall he thinks this Pope is apostate, Paul was apostate, etc. Not really orthodox Catholic, orthodox Christian, etc.

I guess Leo like Buzzard is a religion of one.

North

[st_michael]

Cortese,

Leo considers scripture to be irrelevant. He goes according to Church tradition, papal decree and any mysterious appearance the devil happens to make in a Virgin Mary suit.

Tom

Correction... Leo considers Scripture and Church Tradition irrelevant... He only puts stock in his own opinions... :D

[st_michael]

I don't think this is fair to the Roman Catholic Church. Leo does not follow scripture but nor does he follow the Catholic Church teaching. He has a strange mix of doctrines. If I recall he thinks this Pope is apostate, Paul was apostate, etc. Not really orthodox Catholic, orthodox Christian, etc.

I guess Leo like Buzzard is a religion of one.

North

This strange mix of doctrines is a huge problem that individualism has caused... Martin Luther quickly found this problem out when he first developed his teachings without an authoritive Priesthood... He trusted each person would be able to read Scripture and come to the correct understanding... When he realized many people differed from his understanding he pushed the system of Pastors and placed himself as Head Pastor to protect the Scriptures from being misunderstood...

However... once you open the Box you can not hide what escaped... :(

Leo is just one of many that believe they have the answers... Individualism tells them they are correct...

I don't believe Jesus intended each person to be the center of truth... I believe Jesus is the Truth and his Body the Church is the Pillar of Truth... His Body being the Church... The Catholic Church...

So then it is fitting in every way to glorify Jesus Christ Who has glorified you, that in one obedience you may be perfectly joined together, submitting yourselves to the bishop and to the presbytery, and may in all things be found sanctified...

...But since love does not suffer me to be silent concerning you, I have therefore hastened to exhort you to set yourselves in harmony with the mind of God. For even Jesus Christ, our inseparable Life, is the Mind of the Father, as also the bishops, established in the furthest quarters, are in the mind of Jesus Christ.




Yea, and it becometh you also not to presume upon the youth of your bishop, but according to the power of God the Father to render unto him all reverence, even as I have learned that the holy presbyters also have not taken advantage of his outwardly youthful estate, but give place to him as to one prudent in God; yet not to him, but to the Father of Jesus Christ, even to the Bishop of all. 3:2 For the honour therefore of Him that desired you, it is meet that ye should be obedient without dissimulation. For a man doth not so much deceive this bishop who is seen, as cheat that other who is invisible; and in such a case he must reckon not with flesh but with God who knoweth the hidden things...

...Therefore as the Lord did nothing without the Father, , either by Himself or by the Apostles, [B]so neither do ye anything without the bishop and the presbyters. And attempt not to think anything right for yourselves apart from others: but let there be one prayer in common, one supplication, one mind, one hope, in love and in joy unblameable, which is Jesus Christ, than whom there is nothing better.



It sounds like St. Ignatius is in agreement with the Catholic Church…

[Randy S]

Capital punishment is clearly morally just for certain sins if the judgment is made rightly. I think the Bible is very clear about that.

I haven't read what the pope said, but perhaps his comments are based on a somewhat different point: can capital punishment be rightly practiced in a fallen world without a direct connection to God?

The number of death row inmates who have been exhonerated via new technologies recently casts doubt on only one aspect of the problem. Unlike God, we human beings don't always know for certain what the truth is. Other problems include things like prejudice and inconsistent apllication and representation.

When God set up Israel he set it up as a Theocracy. The Israelites had the literal presence of God among them and even a literal interface with divinity in the Urim and Thummin. In fact, if I remember correctly, shortly after being given a law concerning capital punishment a man was caught red-handed breaking the Sabbath commandment. Even though there were eye witnesses and the penalty had been spelled out by God Himself, the Israelites still brought the question to God and asked what the sentence should be. That shows how strongly the original system relied on access to God's personal judgment. We don't have ANYTHING like that today.

Later, in the Bible, we have situations where God did NOT put people to death when His Law called for capital punishment. Jesus and the woman caught in adultery is only one example. Moses and David were both murderers, yet God chose them both for special work.

This temporal life is the ONLY opportunity each person has to choose their eternal destination. One point on which every Christian should be acutely aware is that when you take another person's life, you end that opportunity. There are examples in the Bible, such as Judah's king Menassah, son of Hezekiah, who, late in life, after decades of the most despicable rebellion against God, turned and was saved. Did he deserve the opportunity to live out his life in captivity (he was converted while he was in jail)? NO. By law he should have been executed. So should David have been for murdering Uriah.

We have ALL sinned. By Law, all sinners are sentenced to death. The only reason some of us will not die is because Jesus died for us and we chose to accept Jesus as our savior.

Society needs to protect itself from criminals. While I believe the Bible teaches that it is morall justified to execute a person for certain crimes I believe that in our current societies, seperated from God, it is better to permanently remove such people from society, without killing them. I believe in life imprisonment without possibility of parole, and I believe in requiring prisoners to work in order to help pay the cost of their incarceration.

[Quasar]

Here is another case and point - where the Pope - and the Word of God are in opposite corners.

It is God Himself who instigated the death penalty - so what is the Pope thinking about?

The one penalty that would be the strongest deterent to crime - greater than even the death penalty - are those 40 lashes - less one - imposed in the Mosaic Law.

The number of deaths from people being shot in this country, last year alone, about 11,500, is a travesty! Look at the obedience of the Chinese - simply because they utilize corporal punishment! When punishment begins with pain for criminals - the crime wave will diminish materially.

In Christ!

Quasar

[itsjustdave1988]

Catholic moral theology does not assert that the death penalty is always illict. However, how it is implemented can be unjust.

In the U.S., our justice system often found to be in error. For example, a killer who has enough money (e.g., OJ Simpson) can avoid punishment altogether, whereas those unfortunate souls without the big bucks seem destined to go to jail, often later to be discovered innocent of the crime for which they were accused. Within such a system, is the death penalty just? The Pope's personal opinion in no. However, Catholics are free to disagree.

Justice in the U.S. is much like bologna. It's a pretty good product, until you learn more about how it is made.

[Zaph]

...is much like bologna. It's a pretty good product, until you learn more about how it is made. Dave, thanks for my chuckle for the day. :)

[Quasar]

Hi Dave -

You said:

>>>Catholic moral theology does not assert that the death penalty is always illict. However, how it is implemented can be unjust.<<<

Is it not God who established righteous justice? It is man who has diluted it leaving it without, coupled with the errors of the human element. You are right - it is difficult to really find true justice in the USA.

The fact is, to put a screaming halt to the crime epidemic in this country, there is a sure way. Reinstigate the 40 stripes less one as was originated by God. A good example of the success of corporal punishment is China, as well as a few others. There would be far greater deterent in that than the death penalty is now.

In Christ!

Quasar